Self promotion???

Alright Nilton. I take back calling you a hater.

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I never really thought about the shoutbox for self promotion, usually what I see there is more clique like. Every now and then something important comes up (think Cody)
It does seem like a way for a newbee to get heard however. I have not been here that long, but I just click on newest jams and look for something that interests me, but I am not really fishing for thumbs. Don't get me wrong a nice comment and a thumb up is a good feeling, but I play because I like to :)

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I agree. I think the more satisfying part of this site is when people join your jams as opposed to getting thumbs... thumbs are nice, but it's really about jamming, having fun and being creative!

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I can't say I've noticed it *too* much and, for me, it's each to their own and I'm certainly not bothered by it. I do post links to tracks in the shoutbox but it's usually someone else's add that has impressed me (although it's often an add to something I've added to so you could call it 'promotion by proxy' or some other nonsense!).

We all do adds we're *particularly* proud of every so often so why not show off a bit? I really see no harm in it. Personally I'm very self-critical, as is often seen by my comments with an add, so I rarely promote myself - I'm fortunate enough that people follow me so that it largely gets noticed anyway.

Nevertheless, as the 'Loops gets busier and busier, I believe it will get harder for one's performances to be seen or noticed, especially for newcomers. And that could result in new joiners being deterred or disaffected as they watch their hard work get largely steadfastly ignored. Perhaps the mechanism for how new adds are notified (that you're not following) could be altered but I have no idea how!

I find it hard to keep on top of 'unfollowed adds' because I rarely access the main Wikiloops page - I view practically everything via my profile, therefore I only see activity from those I'm following.

One possibility that springs to mind is not to allow stem hyperlinking in the shoutbox but perhaps, the first, say, ten adds by new joiners are automatically notified via the shoutbox to give them a fighting chance? Or say, get notified in your profile page of new adds from unfollowed performers via a similar rule?

It's a tough call!

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Exactly, I hardly ever go to the main page, I am either in my profile, a band page or the forum. The only thing that I see is the shout box.

I suppose this will not be possible for whatever reason, but in an ideal parallel universe there would another box next to the shoutbox with just showing new song links (either automatically or open for shameless self promoting) I would probably click on a few more "unknown" ones that way.

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That wouldn't be a bad idea. Just something below the Shoutbox showing 'latest 5 or 10 uploads' or something...

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I strongly dislike advertising in the shoutbox, because I'm smart enough to know why it's wrong. I have said things to people in the past, and just wound up being hated for it and treated like an enemy. So I had to let it go. But where I come from, it's considered tacky, inappropriate and indicative of a flimsy internal compass.

There were times when I closed my browser, and walked away from the computer because the constant advertising was ruining my Wikiloops experience. Seeing the never-ending selfishness made me physically ill.

A very helpful saying which applies here is "Don't toot your own horn" Feel free to Google the phrase if you need help understanding it's genesis in society.

Thank you for speaking up because it is tacky, and has to stop. I am proud of the fact that I NEVER advertise, and I have EARNED any respect I have gotten here.

There was a time when I tried to be friendly in the shoutbox and add to the sense of community, because nobody else was regularly chatting. ONLY advertisements. I would say hello to people and the response was a bunch of track numbers half the time. The purpose of the shoutbox was to get to know each other a little bit, not an advertising outpost.

It really bothers me and it really bothers a lot of people. I think we should get rid of the shoutbox and replace that space on page with some other useful feature. It is clear the shoutbox will never be used for its intended purpose.

One more thing: I intentionally refuse to click on track numbers in the shoutbox. If someone posts a track in there looking for bass, it will not be getting any thumbs, or comments, or bass from me. So the idea that posting it in there is going to make your track "take off" is not accurate.

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I stopped looking to jam on your drums because of your self promotion. You're really good too it's a shame. But I will never jam on your drums again. Just something to consider as you smugly dismiss Nilton's highly valid concerns.

It is self promotion whether you dance around it with word games or not.

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Posting track numbers belonging to someone else is a nice gesture, and I applaud it because of its inherently unselfish nature. Self promotion is the issue here, not spreading the word about someone else's awesome track, which i'm just fine with.

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If you want feedback do it privately or talk to people in comments sections. It's self promotion whether you play word games or not.

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May I suggest a peaceful way to solve the problem? If someone self-promotes, just make 5 comments in the shoutbox and their little selfish promo will be gone. I hope it doesn't come to that, but i'm prepared to do it every time I see it.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/U54rFPN.jpg[/img]
If anyone has hurt feelings from any of my comments, here is a direct link to the fillable hurt feelings report.

[url=https://www.pdffiller.com/en/project/59368802.htm?form_id=100070455]Fillable hurt feelings report[/url]

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My final comment is Dick should charge money to insert track #s. Advertising costs money for a reason. Wanna put your track number in the shoutbox so bad? Pay $5 or $10 for EACH track number. At least then it would help fund Wikiloops.

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It seems that we have a very broad spectrum of opinions here. And most of them have some substance it seems.
But i think we all can agree on that the shoutbox is not an ideal place, particularly since new jams ARE advertised on the front page. One problem seems to be that many members do ot visit the front page very often if at all so an alternative presentation would be welcome by most.

And i also think we are witnessing a shift in common practice in that bragging, self promotion, tooting your own horn, etc seems to be more accepted by younger or more liberal people. And i do not necessarily think that should be left unanswered because it hampers social interaction.

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I took some time to think about if I want to participate in this discussion. Here my five cents to this topic:

Freedom is based upon tolerance and tolerance is rather based upon "accepting things you don't like" instead of "things you like". Everybody can tolerate things he likes. In this context the complete discussion rather intolerant. "Is it just me or are there other people here that sincerely dislike self promotion?" It is not the question if you like "self promotion" but if you are able to tolerate things you don't like.

I wonder what somebody dislikes next, gays, jews, rock music, music from the near east, "entartete Kunst". I don't think the direction this roads leads is good or artistic in any way.

As an human being and as an artist I just can hope this complete "This is good, because I like and this is bad because I don't like it." topic ends soon.

PS: I found wonderful pieces of art and many new friends of what you call "self promotion"

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This isn't a public place where freedom of speech applies. Please don't start in with the victim crap. Dick reserves the right to have any rules he wants.

Comparing this discussion to being Nazis is way out of line. That's a disgusting attempt at hardball protesting.

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Geez.

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1. There is no rule against self promotion. You just try to implement one out of your personal preferences.
2. I don't think Dick wants to implement "ANY rule he wants". (This sounds more like your behavior)
3. Your opinion that this is not a place of "free speech" and your complete behavior in the shout box and in this forum makes me no longer want to discuss with you.

PS: Obvious this whole idea did not brought people together but splitt it and that is prove enough for its wrong direction. Even if you not have kill 6 million people so far, you can still be Nazi minded.

PPS: Acting intellectual has nothing to do with "victim crap"

PPPS: Let's stop our personal dispute here. I guess we both have sufficient inside about each other mindsets. Thanks

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Well, nice to know what I deserve :)
I already voted for a moderate and tolerant behaviour as far as the self-promotion topic is concerned.
Freedom of speech does apply here, as long as certain social standards are met (no offensive language, promotion of violence, "flaming", "name-calling" etc etc).

If I step out in a public place waving a sign "Hey, I am a cool dude!" then you have the right to think I'm funny, weird or whatever you like to think.
I do have the right to make a fool out of myself, and you have the right to think I'm a fool.
You do however not have the right to come up to me and call me names, break my precious sign and tell me to go away.

Mike_66s definition of tolerance is correct, but -as my previous contribution in this thread may assure you- we are going nowhere near starting a "dislike" culture on wikiloops.

With anyone being free & most welcome to have their own opinion about what we referred to as "shoutbox self-promotion" here, we all will have to agree that we don't agree.
Not all attempts to discuss something will lead to a common compromise between the participants, and this obviously is the case here.
We will have to live with that, lets spend our time focusing on more interesting things, shall we?

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Back to the music ...

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You are letting some VERY important pieces out of the equation: Responsibility and obligation without which freedom just reduces to nonsense.

Common practice exists for a reason, it makes things work.

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