POST your RIG !

Ok, since my last post I have utilized the Dithering on some tracks.

You may be amazed at what it does.. Really, you don't notice what it does, you notice if it is not there.

My best example is.. [url=http://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-52262.php]52262[/url]

To see what it does, crank up this tune.. Maybe not your amp, or speakers, but crank the volume on the track to full. Then crank the volume on your computer to full. Then turn up you volume until you have it nice and loud.
You will notice, there is NO distortion.
Unlike other tracks, where the square waves make annoying pops and crackles.
Which WILL hurt your speakers. (square waves = FULL ON to your speaker) making them extend to their full out position in the magnetic field. Causing damage.

This is what dithering does for you.

Another crank-able tune is [url=http://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-53133.php]53133[/url]

This track was normalized, THEN dithered.

Another one is [url=http://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-53971.php]53971[/url]

I set the volumes of all tracks to -0.3 (normalized)
Then mix down with 16bit dithering on all tracks, and the master stereo set. With the dithering tool POST FADER. (important).

You can listen to the previous tracks, A/B them, and you will see.

Hope this helps someone to turn out dithered tunes.

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Good information here.
Thank you all.

My rig is -
MacBook Pro
Logic X
Blue audio freebie plugins as well as apples
Focusrite Saffire Pro24 interface.
Yamaha HS5 monitors.
Phil Jones Bass Buddy pre/DI/10watt amp
Genzbenz 2x12.

Basses -
my main go to is a Japanese Fender Precision 62RI with thomastik flats.
5 string American standard jazz - labella rx rounds
Lakland Skyline 44-02 - sadowsky black label rounds
5 string Status Energy - daddario round
American Deluxe Precision - Dr DDT rounds

A resource I've recently discovered, which has help greatly is a website and YouTube channel called producelikeapro.com

I'm still learning the how logic x works so when tracking i play until it sounds good in the mix.

When mixing I like to blend the bass so it's audible and never covers up what is there.
I roll off the bottom end of the backing track and make sure the kick still has the power.
i use the build in bass amp designer in logic for my bass sound and just try the many presets until one feels right and then fine tune from there.
I then listen through my iPhone with a set of Apple dual armature IEMs and a Cambridge audio amp with B&W 705s.

I've have collected my basses, monitors and listening equipment over years and years and rely on that familiarity to make my choices about mixing.

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Hey Jeebsie,
Thanks for sharing your rig.
And your info on mixing.

I will check out the site you mentioned.

Sounds like you have some time in on playing / recording.

How long have you been doing this ?

And, I like that you use a couple of monitoring set-ups.
This makes for good mixing, seeing (hearing) it from a couple of different perspectives.

Did you record / mix on analog stuff before the digital realm ?

I started with 4 track and went right into mini-disk, then hard-disk Roland all-in-one, then DAW.

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I started out playing around with a Tascam 4-track Portastudio which belonged to the music department my parents taught in. My first proper recording toy was a Tascam 688 8-track cassette 'Portastudio' MIDI synced via good old MIDI FSK, using track 8, to an Atari 1040ST running, initially Steinberg Pro-24 before switching to C-Lab Notator! From there went to a 486 running Cakewalk.

After that it was Cubase SX3 for mixing using exports from a friend's Roland VS-2480 - a great toy!

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Hey Marty !
That's a cool history. And pretty intricate for the day.
Funny we had a few similar pieces.
I had the Vestax MR-44 4 track, and the Roland VS-840ex.
The Roland was a cool piece and I still have it.
Also have the Zoom 8 track HD16 H.D.R.

After all of it, I still like the DAW the best.
Just the amount of edit/addition capability, and the ease of overview of the entire project.

But we did get a lot of use out of that Roland, my friends enjoyed the ease of use, and pretty good on board effects, (for the time), churned out a few gems. Fun ! :)

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Hey MasterK,
I'm always interested in this topic as I always find interesting new facts and techniques.

I bought a macbook in 2008 and started using Garage Band but not to record just to practice alone with drum samples.

I started playing bass in 2000 to help with a hand injury and in 2001 started jamming with guys that were right into the home recording and I remember Cubase running on Win 98 being their DAW of choice, so while I personally didn't do anything other than play I did a lot of listening and observing.

I recorded an Album back in 2010 which was a great experience as the Engineer was more than happy to be peppered with questions.

wikiloops has actually been what has kicked started my interest again and with everything I upload i try a different technique for the bass.
Probably most consistently though, as I believe Martin said regarding his snare, is I record each bass without tone roll off or eq and just have all the information there as it's easier to cut frequencies than to add them.

It can sound terrible on its own with the finger noise clacking and so forth but it is easier to work with.

I'm curious, what was the process for recording and editing using a four track or for you Martin, the 8 track?

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The only difference between the 8 and 4-track analogue gear was ability to work in stereo. Either way, you had to get into the habit of 'bounce downs' (I think they were called). I'd mix three tracks of drums (kick and two overheads) into one track, leaving three available for everything else. I'd record bass and rhythm guitar next and bounce them into track two now leaving two tracks spare for everything else. Unlike the digital age, bouncing tracks cost quality of the sound (usually adding hiss and top end loss). You had to be sure your mix was good because, once bounced down, there was no changing it beyond EQ.

I don't know how apocryphal the story is, but I was told by a friend that for 'Bohemian Rhapsody' the tape was worn to almost being see-through by the end due to the sheer number of vocal overdubs and bounce downs.

You had to be far more creative in those days and I always enjoyed the challenges of working with such limitations. But the 8-track 688 was an absolute luxury for the home recordist. It always amazed me how much quality and definition the machine got out of just an 8th of the width of a cassette tape (the built-in DBX noise reduction was very good too). The tapes played at twice the speed and, of course, used both 'sides' at once meaning you got a quarter of the recording time out of a cassette - A C60 cassette only gave you 15 minutes of recording time. I think I had to use chrome tapes as the quality was higher.

But the timecode was an utter God-send - unlike SMPTE, etc., you had to 'pre-stripe' the track with the MIDI FSK tone played back via the MIDI interface from your sequencer at the correct tempo. Once on the tape you couldn't make tempo adjustments without striping again. If you'd recorded any audio then tough! Nevertheless, at only the expense of track 8, all keyboards and everything else MIDI was synced from that one track leaving 7 tracks spare for audio.

Ultimately, that setup made hundreds of recordings for radio stations. With careful attention to making sure levels were good and strong, etc., you could genuinely get broadcast quality out of it.

Then I got a 486 with Cakewalk and, most importantly of all, access to digital audio recording and capture. It got even easier to multitrack because I could now bounce tracks to WAV on the computer at no loss of quality and then play them back 'on-the-fly' synced to the 8-track giving me, in effect, access to unlimited tracks (well, up to what the 486 could cope with which wasn't a lot!).

These days, the digital recording of music is the musical equivalent to the transformation digital cameras brought. You no longer had to worry whether what you recorded was good enough - you could just do it again or correct what you've got. And of course, all the racks of outboard gear you used to need (reverb was always a scarce resource!) are now on the computer!

I still try to go for a clean take - pride dictates that I should. I always aim for a take that doesn't require any correction. Mostly because I hate editing!

With my 2015 MacBook Pro running Reaper, the Terratec 8-in interface and a few mid-rage mics, I have a studio in my bag that's vastly more powerful than any of the professional recording studios I recorded in in the '90s.

I kinda miss the limitations of the old days as I do think it sparks more creativity. Limited resources always spawns ingenuity for me.

The TASCAM 688 MidiStudio. A fabulous machine that cost me £1800 second-hand in 1992. I sold it on eBay three years ago for £200 to a collector and analogue audio fanatic.

[img]https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/223811d1299581538-march-2011-new-gear-thread-198121d1287237088-top-10-sexiest-consoles-tascam-688-093.jpg[/img]

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Thanks Martin thats very good info.

I imagine recording that way in the studio when time is money could get pretty distracting for the musicians, the nerves would kick in!

The limitation you had to work with makes me think that convenience of the DAW is a double edge sword as I've sometimes spent hours messing with all the settings trying to fix a part when all thats usually required is a 30 minute break and a retake:)

Besides value for money, can I ask what made Reaper your DAW of choice?

I chose Logic X solely for the excellent "one click" Drummer plugin e.g. 52062

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My answer and examples about mixing the drums can be found [url=http://www.wikiloops.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=907]here[/url]. I decided to put my reply in its own thread.

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Simply that Reaper is free and all I could get my hands on for quite a while. I've now paid for it ($60 is hardly a killer) and I've really started to learn my way around.

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Okay!...this is more 4 guitarists ....but vocals are also used via my Rig :)as I also sing! ;)


So I use a Boss BR-1200....I bounce all my backin tracks onta this!( via Mixcraft pro6)...then I select an effect COSM,...Then I go 1 take!....(I never edit nothing!..i may add vocal additions/harmonies!.... But its always Red light un Go!!!:D ).....I use mesa boogie R-fier P006 ( its a dual rectifier tube sound!...& very much my signature most used overdriven effect) 4 guitar!.......(& on this system I have all Boss Pedal effects and Cab/Head simulations...its crazy! ;))........4 vocal I add reverb/delay( but there are many tools 4 this option) I just stick wid normal effect 4 vocals ....I don't mess wid my voice!...its wat it is!:D

I download the wiki file (Mp3) onto channel 1/2 ....then add either guitar/vocal.....that's how I start a track!.....I only use volume mainly..but Bass is normally the issue!.....in terms of workable/acceptable levels.........depending on various frequencies...I may go ta EQ ect....Attack/High/Relative..... mostly on the guitar solo...but as with all mix its about blend 4 me :)
I then burn off onto CD (I do this purely 4 sound system compatibility ect.:)...the bit rate 4 the BR1200 is the same as Abby Road Studios OkaY! :).).. & so my m8's hav a copy......its good 2 hear it via different effects Home Cinema(theatre/Hall/Cinema/Opera...ect.....I then up load ta windows media player...save ta file....then attach to wikiloops.com.

its my way of doing stuff! ;)......bit long winded but I like 2 hear it via CD 1st :D.......this is my Rig 4 da Loops! ;)

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@ Jeebsie,
Yes as Marty said, you had to be creative.
The 4 track was very small in the way of tracks. But had a decent sound.
And I also used chrome cassettes, they held up better to over-dub.
Bouncing down was a chore, and couldn't be un-done.
Then when you over-dub the tracks you bounced, they are gone.
But Marty covered that, and gave you good insight to something a little more robust, than what I had.
So, that was then, and now is so much easier. And less costly per song. Maybe equal on startup costs, if you count all cables, books, software/hardware, etc..
But, that being said, way better results. And digital output equals ready to go for most applications.

Appreciate your input and questions.

I would ask you one thing, are you happy with logic ?
Ever tried any others to compare it with ?

My first experience with recording software was some 19.00 US thing for playing midi's, and recording 2 tracks of audio along side.
I thought I was on top of the world making my first recording on a computer.. LOL :)

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@ incivanpico,

Great share of your rig, and technique.
I for one don't believe there is any way to record / mix that is perfect, or wrong.
Meaning- Your way is good, and I like how you go right for CD, which is how I used to also.
I had the Roland VS840ex, then out optical to a CDRecorder (stand alone).
I would then listen in car/house/boombox. And make decisions based on that, to re-mix or not. :)

So, in retrospect, I have tried it a bunch of ways also. Just for me, I like to mix to MP3, then audition on my 2.1 PC system. It is not THE BEST setup. But I try to keep in mind, most listeners don't have HIGH END (over 5000 US) systems.
So, I think the target audience, should set your scope-of-work so to speak. :)

One other thing I think, is "which" instrument are you doing, like Marty is recording live drums, and must go back and forth to his studio and mix station.
Or a vocalist, would need a quiet room, shower stall, or outside, or other special place. Where they can hear themselves, or add "room", to achieve the desired effect.
What I mean is , laptop with a AD converter can do that, but not a studio rig, with hardwired mic's, acoustical treatment, drum room, etc..

One question to you incivanpico is.

Did you start out on that rig, or step up from something else ?

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@ Marty,
Thanks for sharing that cool rundown of the gear you have used.
I didn't know about the Midi-stripe during those times.
Too cool.

Do you have any of the old gear you have used ?
I keep a few KEY pieces just for remembering the time, at which I used it.
And the many friends inter-acting. ETC.
Always brings back memories. :)

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Hi MasterK,
Thanks for the response.
So far so good with Logic, I'm still probably only utilising 5% of it's capabilities but I will stick with it.
I have watched people use Cubase, Protools and Audacity. Other than hitting record haven't gone into it.
My observation would be similar to using a Mac, Linux or Windows - Same end result, different journey.

I felt the same for my first Wikiloops upload and when the comments came in, other hobbies suddenly took a back seat:D

Hi Martin,
Reaper looks really well done and thanks for the recording rundown in the other forum.

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@MasterK
I was fortunate that my guitar teacher had a Boss Br type digital studio. And he told me to buy this very studio early on in my deciding to record my music. I think they cost £250 approx. on ebay....and its got everything a Band would need...4 me its the way I like 2 do stuff....I really haven't got into the computer software thing!....so this is another method if ya like! ;)

I'd really like at some point 2 start looking at combining my computer and this studio, as it uses WAV....just a case of laziness really, in terms of me sussing it all out and setting it all up! :) :)

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Wow I read through this thread, amazing recording equipment and knowledge that you guys have. I feel like I am trespassing with my very basic equipment. Up to a couple of months ago I was using Audacity for recording, I switched to Qbase 8 now. Working with Martin on a track recently showed me that I basically don't know FA about mixing and mastering, but I already picked up a few pointers.

My recording setup is just my guitar, my guitar VOX Tonelab ST effects device and my trusted 10 year old notebook and my beloved sofa. That's it... takes 2 minutes to set up...once I mix it I listen to it on my stereo and also on a portable stereo in the kitchen, just to hear it from different sources. I also like to listen to my stuff on the way to and from work, I put it on repeat and give it a good old listening (beats listening to stupid radio). That's it.

[img]http://www.wikiloops.com/images/avatars/wl-insava-177651448358314.jpg[/img]

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@ Jeebsie,
It's ok however you do it. Just so you get you ideas out there. :)

@ incivanpico,
Yes different journey's, same results.
The thread was started to just see others techniques, and equipment.
Maybe help a newbie understand it's not equipment as much as technique. :)

@TG_Strat,
Yes some good info passed on this one from all.
I know I got away from the original meaning of the thread with technique of mixing, but it does
go hand-in-hand.
I like the simplicity of your rig, and I like the results of your playing / using the gear. :)
It doesn't need to be complicated, to sound good.
That was kind of the idea of the whole thing. :)

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@ MasterK
Since you have opened up this Thread on each musicians RIG/System ect....I'd just like 2 add that I made the effort un bought The Mackie Onyx Blackbird 16x16 firewire interface.:)
Simple reason is i have a Mackie onyx 24.4 Analog desk....and how do you couple that with a DAW or Digital BOSS br1200 system???(i'd need 3 Blackbirds 4 my desk ie 8/8/8)....apparently this is how! (YouTube> Mackie Onyx Blackbird 16x16 firewire)....all looks good!:).....so i'm going in2 computer/plug in Eq/Comp/Mastering territory......hope i survive hehe!!;)......i'll update on this post!:):)

Also i'd recommend any new'bee Looper 2 check out Tim Pierce on YouTube(Session Master Guitarist Extra'odinair!!!) this guy is taking about Amps/pedals/mic's......how 2 create a sound proof room and everything about Pre-amps EQ Compression.....Really this Guy is Da Kiddie!!!:D... he talks about stuff that really is Old school recording....i suggest 2 really follow this Man ( i think he's the Best IMO!).....Plz Subscribe to his channel cause....its a dying art these days what this Guy does!...Gotta pay the Bills!:D (I only mention this because these guys are front line)...session players!.... really are the Boyz that test and create at the Live end(HOT) of the stick!...and we fellas reap our sound via their Craft!:):):)

My teacher Tony was a session player!(Nashville/The Crossroads/And everywhere he goes!...yup ;))....its all about being creative wid wat u got, that's how u find ur sound he said!......create via basic guitar/ amp....maybe a pedal/effect.
Then technology is just so others can hear you! & enjoy! ( That's Mr T.Taylor);)

You'll know when you sound like you!....cause yer Soul will jump out un hit ya!(I think you understand!)

Money can't buy your sound! & its usually simple or just by mistake the best Tone is created!.....but have fun with wat you buy! ;)

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Hey incivanpico,
Wow, I just read about that interface today !
What a coincidence, and you say you have it .. LOL.
Yes please keep updating, I love the Onyx pre's, and I have worked with Focusrite Octo-pre.
When it comes to budget devices, Mackie is right there, I know they have had some hiccups, but who hasn't , and Ber tries to copy them, that should say something.

Anyhow, woot on your buy, and let me know your review.
Congrats !

And I will check your dude on YT for techniques !

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