AI on Wikiloops a no-go?

just commenting to push this to page 7 :o

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It is about to evaluate the technological level of a track or a jam. Establish a scale and accept or reject the highest level = IA.
I understand that Wikiloops can't be an AI playlist.

(I like them more and more and they attract)

https://www.udio.com/playlists/6028ad08-68cb-406d-aa35-a4917b6467d6


I Like this

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This is getting old, but once more I'm going to reiterate what's been said for which we've not heard anyone give a reasonable explanation or volunteer money or time. Any AI on Wikiloops will require a moderator if it's coming to this site as there will be a large flow of tracks that will not necessarily wind up in a separate section. That takes somebody to have to continually sort and fix the situation. If it's very separate so that it's not even the same web page/address, then it's another site. Those already exist! Go there!

If you want Wikiloops to open an AI site or (somehow) mix it into the current site, are YOU gong to pay for this to happen? Are you going to volunteer time to ensure the rest of the site isn't flooded?

Last time:

NOBODY IS PREVENTING ANYONE FROM USING AI AND POSTING IT ELSEWHERE WITH A LINK IN THE FORUM FOR THOSE WHO ARE INTERESTED.

How is this not good enough? What is your motive in possibly destroying what is unique and treasured by so many about this place? Play with AI somewhere where it's welcomed. It should be obvious by now that a lot of us do not welcome it and will probably abandon anywhere that is dominated by AI.

If you're determined to have AI commit your money and time to Richard so that he can consider it (hopefully as a separate site and not mixed here!). If you're not willing to do this, then you're asking everyone else to support a change that most of us don't want. Please think about this. Step up with your (very substantial) funding that shows your committent.

Asking others to support something like AI without offering to at least fund the changes isn't a particularly good attitude. At least ask Richard how much it would cost to set up a site... then it's over to you two and not the rest of us who DO NOT want it here. You want it? You put up the $$.

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A Post I found written by Dick nov 2023
thoughts about Ai


You know... I happen to be spending a lot of time thinking about AI and how this is going to change things, including some own experiments and insights into what it feels like to probe the potentials.
I'll not write a book on that here now, but if you ask for my two cent... well, I also believe the many consumer type situations where people like to have "some music" as they shop, work out, study or whatever is highly likely to be satisfied by AI composed and produced music. I believe the amount of AI generated piano music on Spotify is already huge to a point where a portion of their revenue is cashed out to AI composers instead of humans.
I also do not believe it will stop short of "niche" genres like Jazz. AI will end up producing the next album of any band that quit touring three decades ago - there will be someone who wants to thrill with the new Michal Jackson single, or the first track that sounds like the lost session tape of some Miles Davis show, or another Mozart piece.
As the aging generations have the money and might buy that stuff, it will be produced. Imagine Elvis and Tupac having their AI powered comeback... mark my words and count the months, for real.
Look at the level of deepfake AI is capable of today, and wait three more years, this will get really really crazy soon.

Whether and how that capability will have an impact on social events... we'll have to see, but it would be surprising if it had none.
Not sure if there will be high demand for studio musicians anytime soon, maybe we will see live performed music turned into some rather special cultural event.

But let's be honest, the live band at the pub around the corner has not been successfully happening for over a decade (at least where I was at, and we used to tour trying), so, maybe that is a trend that has been happening which may now be boosted a bit.

People will continue to love a lot of bass played back on proper 15"+ speakers.
That will not change.
And they will still notice and enjoy watching a really good band locking in with each other whilst making music, as there is some magic in that.

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Wade!
Our files are property of Wikiloops and the company can sell those files for an AI to train. Maybe, but I'm not sure about that. That is an extra economic contribution, but to sell decently there must be a technological classification of the files that is not being achieved now.What part of the Wikiloops tracks is authentic? I am referring to the minimum level of technology, that is, the recorder and an instrument (taking into account that we exclude the computer as an instrument)
If now it is not the business to sell our production to AI companies then the economic approach changes (I don't know)

I also don't understand how you measure the opinion of the Wikiloops community.
I am not decided nor have I taken a position on whether AI should be banned or not. I have not received any email or warning about expressing my opinion.

Regarding the cost of this change, as you said community is important, I see a minimum expense to technologically classify the tracks. I don't see almost any expenses. There we differ. It is simply another option when starting a jam or adding yourself to it. : CLASSIFY FROM ONE TO TEN (for example) THE TECHNOLOGICAL LEVEL OF YOUR RECORDING.
Level 0 is not possible (live music) and level 10 (technology only, with very little human intervention) is what we are discussing.
That's just a few lines of code and storing in the database, the rest is the user's responsibility. If it is decided that the highest level is not accepted, then a warning will have to be placed that AI is not accepted.That's another line of code.
Cost €100 no more, I'll assume that if necessary :)
Maybe I didn't read correctly the economic approach that you did to admit AI.

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It doesn't matter what any of us wants and Richard's blurb is hardly endorsing AI to wind up here.

The decision I can assure you will not be democratic as Richard owns the site. It's his project to do with as he pleases. If that's to turn it over to AI then many of us will be out of here and head for somewhere that excludes AI. If it's to exclude AI then those of you who somehow don't enjoy what the site offers can certainly leave.

Unfortunately we now seem to have a completely polarized situation. Typical I guess as this reflects so many other things happening in the world. Very sad.

There is no way that I can see how AI can be accommodated unless Wikiloops establishes a separate site for AI (totally unnecessary as there are heaps of other sites). Trying to allow some degree of AI is an impossibility without a lot of moderating.

Thinking that AI is somehow equivalent to electronic instruments that MUST be programmed by a person ignores the fact that AI is designed to replace human creativity. Way back in this tirade an example was given of a member who used lyrics they wrote and then had AI write the music,play all the instruments and sing. How does some external program then distinguish that the whole thing isn't an AI track? Well it obviously can't. I've heard no proof (much less offers to subsidize what will be necessary) from AI proponents that is evidence based which would be able to accurately screen some degree of AI and not have us flooded with button pusher tracks.

Plain and simple AI comes, the flood gates open, then lots of us go. Game over. What is the necessity for allowing AI? A few people want to use it? Fine go use it and post tracks elsewhere and put links here for those who are interested.

This is all getting quite ugly and IMHO not healthy for this site.

Hopefully Richard will set his rules about this very soon so we all know what's happening. Then each of us can make our decisions about going back to making music or finding somewhere else where we belong.

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Wade!

On what basis do you say that the situation is polarised?

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I have hope that the majority here already police themselves and will continue to do so. To me the line is clear - do not use AI to create content of any kind.

Personally, that extends to my entire life, not just here. I'm not even tempted to try it out for any "artistic" purpose, it seems to me bafflingly pointless for the likes of you and I.

We are not the beneficiary of this tech, at this point we are being cynically used to train it. For money generating business of course it's very, very attractive exactly because as fast as we fools train it for free, it will replace us.

Tech has already turned music making largely into a hobby, let's not let AI take away even that. :)

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It seems that there are people continually trying to convince others that there is some way that AI can be accommodated: "it's inevitable, just another bit of tech", etc.

I don't see it that way and it seems from the reaction of others they don't either. That's polarization. You can look at me and point to being part of that polarization, and I'll wear it. I don't want to be on a site swamped by AI. Those promoting AI don't seem to care what the consequences are as long as they get to play with it here.

In some ways I'm just as selfish in wanting Wikiloops to be left as it is. There is however a difference in some not caring about the potential consequences of AI, much less offering to pay for what would be required or monitor the problems that could be caused. There is an aspect to that attitude that seems contrary to the spirit of this place.

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I'm a bit thick and didn't know what the word polarization meant? And for the rest of us who may not know either lol

What is polarization in simple terms?
polarization noun (DIVIDING)

the act of dividing something, especially something that contains different people or opinions, into two completely opposing groups: The polarization of society into rich and poor can clearly be seen in urban areas. Our goal is lively discussion, not polarization

:D.

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Some final thoughts and observations from the overthinking jerk who started all this:

a) Last night I was, as usual, going through the list of tracks I marked as potentially interesting for adding to or practicing with (a long list). Then these thoughts started in the back of my mind and quickly took possession of all of my 5 brain cells: How much of this is real? How many of these “musicians” are real? How can I possibly know?

As these are essential issues for me, just having these questions attached to the tracks I was listening to put me right off. I finally settled on a track I was pretty sure of was non-AI as the template was created in 2018. And although I`m not unhappy with the creation and result of my add, it didn`t leave me with the usual glowing feeling of having achieved something (be it of low musical ability and quality).
(For those that can`t relate, it`s like having sex while your brain is constantly asking if you`ve locked the front door and set the alarm for 6 am … only to notice the next morning that it`s Sunday. Disconcerting!)

b) A couple of years ago I was invited by a large IT company to a very hush hush event where they wanted my thoughts on using a new approach to quantum computing for business applications. The demo they showcased was an AI-based chatbot which they had disguised as someone working from a remote location. The responses were remarkable. No one had any idea that the chatpartner taking a very active role in the discussion was just a machine that had been trained in part on conference proceedings and publications of the other participants.

c) So, the ability to hold a qualified discussion with a machine is possible and among us, the computing ability to “create” music in any style with any instrument is possible and among us and even visual proof can now be faked to perfection.

The term that comes to mind is “Trust Issues”.

The monster is loose and can`t be stopped, no matter what laws are passed to regulate the usage of AI. The only thing that gives me some hope that my personal dystopian fears will not soon become my life-encompassing reality is that there will be places of refuge, safe havens.

I would hope that Wikiloops remains such a place. But it`s only based on hope and wishful thinking and placing trust in the Wikiloops members to at least make clear where, when and how AI is used or to refrain from using AI altogether. There will always be rule-breakers and cheats but as long as there are those 20, 30 or 50 musicians here whose input I value and trust in, I`ll be fine 😊

d) I`ll step back from this thread now as I`ve contributed all I can, but I`ll continue reading your thoughts with interest. In the meantime, I`ve found this great 6 minute template from 2016 that simply cries out to be plastered over by keys with dubious sounds and a bass with severe timing issues. In other words, I`ll return to my Wikiloops world of NI (Natural Imperfections) and enjoy it as much as I can.

Is that a suitable positive note to end on? I hope so.

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Dear Dorothy,

AI may seem to you like just something useful and fun that you'd like to use occasionally.

I'm kind of elderly and have few opportunities to play live anymore or with other very fine musicians. This is not a "fun time discussion" for me. It's a matter of whether I'll be able to continue to enjoy this site and the company of everyone playing and creating music. I probably don't have a lot of years left for being able to play music, or in life for that matter. Music is an important part of my life and a joy.

AI is insidious (means it sneaks in and takes over). When/if it's here, it's likely we'll see hundreds (or more) tracks a day. Then many of us will vanish since what we have come here to enjoy will be hard to find and basically gone.

What may be for you a "lively discussion" with little or no personal "skin in the game" is not fun for me. I'd much rather be listening to the music here and playing than in a "discussion" that is a threat about destroying something I love. I can't take casually/lightly.

It feels more like saying "lets play with fireworks inside your house. Fireworks are so much fun and you have a faucet so don't need to worry about fires!"

What some have written here seems to be trying and find excuses to have AI in Wikiloops. That's a point of view. I have an opposite point of view. That is polarization... opposite and opposing points of view. Are you saying that you're not proposing having AI here and you're just trying to stir things up?

The issues around AI are easily uncovered although not really "transparent". Check out the post by MySounds:

https://www.wikiloops.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=3746&rowstart=40#post_27316

It's reply #60 in this thread. It's an interview with Ted Gioia, one of the smartest people in music. Listen to what he's saying. Insidious is undoubtedly the right description.

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Dear Wade, I'm the same age as you are if I remember correctly. And I too am on my last legs, I am not going to deny. I loved hearing my own written lyrics being sung by AI and so too did my kids. I used to sing those lyrics round the house all the time when they were kids .

It seems to me. That you are determined to push your point of view down everybody's throat. sorry just my opinion. It's bit of fun thats it!! No one can ever take the place of real musicians .. AI is here to stay. I've done what you asked. I'm not uploading anymore. I absolutely love hearing you play your fantastic sexy sax. I'm in heaven if you ever add it to one of mine.. AI or losing you. Wade no contest.:o

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It's not often I comment on here, but AI is going to affect everyone of us, so we cant avoid it.

I'm all in favour of technology if it brings things to the table if its useful, or opens up doors to even more creativity, but there's a point where it ceases to be creativity.

Its thanks to AI that the latest Beatles single was an option, as AI was able to split tracks and remove bleed from other instruments that was never possible before - and how great is that!

One thing I don't approve of is AI being used to give the impression someone can play an instrument when they can't, if someone can press a button and get an instant fix and people on here applaud it as a masterpiece - is this really a good thing?

There's something I don't really appreciate, and thats how some "musicians" on here can drag and drop drum tracks and people say "amazing drumming mate" - and they've probably never picked up a pair of drumsticks in their life, while real drummers spend half a day playing on a track then its often largely ignored, but this is just another example of how this place can sometimes be more about popularity rather than skill, ability and talent, some people on here have already been fooled by members who cant really play anything.

If AI makes this even more a Microwave community "press a button and done" will it make it less appealing or more?

Using AI and Tech should be used to open doors, but not for someone who cant play an instrument to pretend, and then get a pat on the back for it

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Thanks Dorothy. There's still nothing preventing you from using AI and posting your tracks elsewhere and putting links to them here.

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Wade as I have stated previously/ I am only on Facebook I post my music and vids on there. And share all my wiki collaborations
I dont post to YouTube.//. I just make them for my kids... Also my AI playlist which the majority of my creations are on Hidden.
because i've not learnt how to extend them as yet. This was the only place. never mind......

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You're jumping to a few conclusions here and also painting a very false picture of creating drum tracks on a computer. At the very least you're picking on essentially copying an entire drum track from elsewhere (drag and drop) then tarring all computer drumming with that broad brush. At the opposite end of the scale, I would be painting every hit onto the grid and sweating trying to make groove. It's ultra time consuming and to be halfway convincing you do need to know how to play the drums in the first place.

I would like you to find time to create one of these drum tracks you are so scathing of and post it up... if it's that easy it won't take you more than a few seconds. :)

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Dear Wade!

Didier
Seriouss
Bradford
Robjol
Deezee
...
etc
We do not have a polarized opinion but rather one with nuances. We understand that a live
would be ideal, but it is impossible that only musicians do it in a performance, Wikiloops is studio music with tracks. That we use software and editing at different technological levels.
I think we must contribute to not putting ideas at the extreme.
Just as we set the tempo when starting a track, the author can put something about the use of technology in a mandatory way, just as the conditions of the site's rights are accepted.
A simple implementation. Whether long samples or AI are accepted is no longer up to us as you say. I have contributed a non-polarized idea and as My Sounds I am taking a break. But I have to say that I like perfect, well-composed music adapted to the style that current AI offers. Maybe it will swallow Spotify, but it won't swallow Wikiloops because even if we play worse, it will be at our service as a tool for emotion, composition or inspiration. If the evolution of music continues at this rate, I can't imagine the future. Just sit back and enjoy because all the works we do serve for our comfort and positive therapy.

Cheers friends

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Is this playing the drums? It's playing for sure, does it matter whether the result is a piano sound or drums? He's visually impaired if that makes any difference. Point being these things are not as clear cut as some would like them to be.
[youtube]G6vl1rCXw3c[/youtube]

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