AI on Wikiloops a no-go?

Was ich mich frage ist: welch Unterschied ist es ob man Inhalte einer KI nimmt für seine Musik oder z.B. Miditemplates (z.B. für Drums) & wer weiß wer diese generiert/programmiert hat. Unterm Strich sind beides Hilfen fürs Songwriting.

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Bei Sodom hat auch ein anderer der nicht zur Band gehört ein Solo eingespielt, haben die Leute die Platten zurückgegeben weil es nicht von einem Bandmitglied gespielt wurde?
Der Gitarrist von Destruction sagte mal in einem Interview das sich die Leute aufregen weil die Drums mit einem E-Drum aufgenommen wurden und nicht mehr an einem Akustik. Er meinte es saß ihr Drummer da, nichts programmiert etc und dennoch waren ein Teil der Fans empört. Würde man aber A-Drums nehmen würde es sich uralt anhören (er hat es deutlich abwertender gesagt).
Worauf ich hinaus will ist, das es zu Fortschritt auch immer andere Meinungen gibt die diese Veränderungen nicht mitgehen wollen aber müssen. Dynamik z.B alles hat kaum mehr Dynamik da es sich auf dem Handy auch gut anhören soll. Handys werden demnach berücksichtigt im Mixen...

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The fact that so many here care so much about this place is a strong indicator that this artistic haven will continue to be a breath of fresh air. Thank you all for your collective nourishing and concern. This is the best site out there because of its unwavering fundamentals of which will remain I’m sure. “Driven by the love of music, the creativity of many and a spirit of global collaboration “

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I think if someone uses AI in a recording that they should state that in the information about the track. People have used vocals from Looperman and they just say that's where the vocals were from. I have put some track up with vocals that were not sung by me and I just say in the information who sang it. I don't see why someone using AI vocals, or AI drums, or AI piano can't be handled the same way.

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I think there's still a difference in copyright with those - if you take a track from Looperman or other sites where people basically say "do with it what you want", then that's different from bots collecting *everything* without permission - and to use that here is, hmmm, tricky IMHO.

If in doubt, ask the Wikiloops support line (joking):

[wl]28465[/wl]

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Hi Face,

schau mal hier. Es ist ganz einfach im Studio deines Drumsets durch den Sound von der Software anzupassen.
[youtube]4CI0Re6XnPQ?si=TlkDlVcpn7aSHtAS[/youtube]

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Its a new type of agriculture in Ireland so... server farms :(

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[youtube]EhATUDok6P4?si=GTHpAzjw895vx8fF[/youtube]

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Let's show ourselves as intelligent as AI by meeting up at the wikiloops meeting @ the barnadise 2024!
B)

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True, but there are many people who are spectators, who don't have time to make music, so they just look for music already built.

On this site, only artistic level, only originals, no copies, no interpretations, without composition rules (until now)

This gives another new meaning to the proposed ideas. We imagine an old-fashioned duel where the weapon is chosen. It would be unfair for one to fight with a sword and the other with a machine gun.

Jams with technological level.

That would be a game of honor, no one could assure, for example, that that piano or that percussion (or that voice) is not synthesis.

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It feels like we are all being dumbed down. We are encouraged to accept and enjoy the banal, whilst ignoring the vital. AI in my opinion is the tool that will remove our essence. So if called on to vote yeah or nay .. Nay.

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What's that fuss about AI ? I thought Wiki was a place for having fun...with whatever. So if you don't like it ,scroll on don't take it too serious.just my 2 cents. If this is all AI is gonna 'cause in the near future were lucky .note : Why became an ordenairie audio plug-in all of a sudden AI ? I saw the docu 'bout the latest Beatles single,AI said the news. It was just a plug-in to separate vocal en piano. I used it once on a track here on Wiki to make a better mix.

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A stupid question to lighten the mood: If you touch AI, do you become "craz'AI"?
:)

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AI will be as dumb as we are since we’re both blindly conditioned.

“Art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable.
Cesar A. Cruz

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in my fantasy I yet can see a robot grabbing my acoustic and trying things out by himself, for training, 24/7 for weeks non-stop. i wake up when I see him red-flagging all *my* uploads. to be continued.

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Even the most powerful computers specifically programmed for that noble sport of chess and competing against man and the best chess players have not made chess disappear... in the end AI will not make "MUSIC" disappear in capital letters, I continue in my philosophical line because I think it is what puts this technology in perspective ;) 🙏

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Josepssv wrote: That would be a game of honor, no one could assure, for example, that that piano or that percussion (or that voice) is not synthesis.

“Offer your own tracks and let others join in”

This is the Wikiloops basic rule that I stick to. I can do this with my AI tools (mix and VST). The Kemper, on the other hand, has cloned the sound of all guitar amplifiers and other objects, or you could say, stolen it. Example: I made a Kemper profile of my Yamaha guitar silent and can play it with a Gibson, for example. I usually change every guitar sound that I use to suit my own taste, and this also shapes my ads.

and:

Today, AI can steal a musician's personal style, voice and instrument sound and then reconstruct it. This is identity theft and is a matter for the justice system. In Switzerland, a politician had his opponent advertise for him using an AI tool. There is now a trial for identity theft. The music industry will also go in this direction, so that after Napster and Spotify, we will soon have some kind of payment model for AI music.

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Allright,
so, instead of continuing the endless works on the barn in preparation for the meeting,
I took in what has been written here,
and now you'll get to read my opinion.

I feel there are two main feelings which are re-iterated in this thread:
- the loss of trust issue: Is what i am hearing real?
- the "will we be flooded by AI content" fear

Then, there is the "pro technology" camp and the "prohibition needs to be" camp... and everybody has their valid views - I didn't read a single statement here which I could not respect.

Once again I need to thank wjl for pointing out one important fact:

We already have a clear rule on whether uploading third-party content is allowed on wikiloops. It is not.
AI content has definitely not been composed by yourself, nor have you created the sounds, and a third party (the AI service provider) has been involved in the making - whoever checks the confirmation box and claims to be the sole author of this music is in the wrong, and that is not new, these rules exist since 2011. There is no need to change these rules because of AI, and I have no intention to suddenly allow third party content. The legal implications would be lethal.

I will get back to the two rather emotional impressions I initially stated, but let me present my own position towards AI first.

I am in the "AI is here to stay" camp, and a general ban of "no AI may be involved in your production for wikiloops" seems ridiculous to me to be honest.
You will not be able to buy a lot of devices which do not use AI in some way in a couple of years.
If your guitar tuner uses AI, so be it.
If your mastering plugin uses AI, why not.
If you know how to prompt an AI and give it your riff idea, asking for a proper second part suggestion, then take the result as an inspiration and develop your own second part based on the suggestion... why would that be bad?
It is a tool that can be used in many many ways, and we should explore the possibilities.

Sure, we do not have to post all of our experiments results to wikiloops.
And uploading finished songs that do not invite remixes has never brought anyone much attention on wikiloops, nor is it advised in our starters tutorials.
Those tutorials actually still advise not to do multiple-instrument remixes to attract other players, that's where we are coming from.

I believe what unites us all in this discussion is the wish to see wikiloops survive in its human-made form, and not let it go down into a heap of AI generated crap music that would prevent real musicians from finding interest in the community.
If that were to happen, this community would die pretty quickly, I do agree with those who are wary of such an evolution.
Have some faith, it won't end that way.

I'll pick up on the "fear of the AI flood" here:
Well, I've been operating wikiloops for 13 years, and I have observed the following:
We have had to deal with individuals who didn't really get what we do here, and tried to participate in strange ways.
Be it to present their own studios finished productions, or to present themselves with material which they didn't really own, all sorts, weird people with strange motives.

However, it were not that many, and no matter how many irritating tracks they uploaded, there has always been a majority of people simply ignoring these individuals after some encounters with their music,
nobody fed them too much interest, so, they eventually lost interest in wikiloops and left.

Trust me, I have observed the phenomenon many times, and I have compared the effort of waiting it out vs. trying to moderate such people into normal wikiloops users... guess which approach works better?

Unlike many other platforms, you don't get far on wikiloops if all you have to offer is some bullshit, and that texture of this platform has prevented any floods.

I do share the view that first time visitor impression is crucial to understand what wikiloops is all about, and trust me, the track search engine (which is first-time-visitors entry point most of the time) is tuned to showcase tracks which many of you have approved of by your likes and remixes.
I have faith in this "passive social protection" that is happening on wikiloops, it took me time to realize that it exists, but I sleep quite well knowing it works.
If you are in the "fear of AI flood" feeling, you may think I was being naive.
I don't think I am, I use AI in my dayjob excessively, and I know it is going to change the world we live in beyond our imagination.

However, ask yourself: If you were that dreaded non-musician experimenting with music generating AI and getting that idea to publish your result... if your social media are not enough, where would you turn to?
The younger generation would turn to TikTok, Twitch or whatever app seems like a great dumping ground, most of these people wouldn't even know about bandcamp or soundcloud, and the smarter ones would seek spotify submission to earn some pennies... where on that list does wikiloops appear?
wikiloops is a great place, but there are no thousand non-musicians circling it and just waiting to flood it with AI generated music,
that is really not a realistic scenario.
Google "where to upload my music" and see if wikiloops is listed anywhere near the top results...
wikiloops simply grants too little incentive to those seeking fame and fortune with quickly generated clips, why should we be afraid of the flood?

Now, on to the "loss of trust" aspect.
I can relate to that as well, but ever since drum samples have become so darn good, I have a hard time believing someone really played something on real drums and took the effort to mic it up so well.
With AI, you won't be able to trust your moms voice on the phone in the near future, there is nothing else I can say... it is a reality all of us will have to deal with.
These tools carry weapon-grade capacities to stir social unrest by misinformation, I can't possibly claim to be able to protect us all from that on wikiloops, sorry.
What we can do is celebrate the low-fi a little more, as it will stand apart from the polished AI results (one can probably prompt AI for low-fi, too), and sure we should emphasize that we value human feeling over polished production wherever possible. I do believe our trust in anything digital will go down as AI moves in, maybe we need more real life jams again :)

So, to draw some kind of bottom line to this long post:
- completely AI generated content does not belong on wikiloops
- instead of active prohibition, witch-hunts and endless discussions with people who have not realized wikiloops is not what they want yet, I advise ignoring users who upload potentially AI infected music without any feedback. Do not feed the trolls.
- if well known and valued members have some interesting AI experiments result to share (which must include some individually created sound IMHO), don't chew their heads off, it is not the end of the world, and someone spent some time figuring out how to do that, similar to trying out some new instrument, and likes to share it. C'mon, a bit of tolerance is OK, right?

This whole thread has been somewhat dominated by that feeling of:
"AI is going to put all musicians out of bread & butter if we don't stop it"

First: We are not here for bread and butter, including myself.
Then: We can play real instruments. We will win. We impress.
Our vibes can be felt in the stomach. We bring tears to peoples eyes.
We can create harmony and disharmony as we like, without needing any electricity.
Don't be affraid, this is the time to go out and show people what live music is, and how it can do more emotional magic than any digital production played back on some bluetooth in ear buds.

Classic orchestras survived, vinyl survived, wikiloops will survive.
With a little help from the community, of course ;)

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Also sprach Zarathustra;)

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