AI on Wikiloops a no-go?
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I forgot to mention:
Let's not forget we have the private band spaces on the loops which offer absolute freedom to upload whatever you want without stepping on anyones toes.
Let's not forget we have the private band spaces on the loops which offer absolute freedom to upload whatever you want without stepping on anyones toes.
+7
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Reflecting on the detection of AI a little further, I'm inclined towards personal judgement - having some practical form of "AI detector" human or otherwise seems a non-starter.
My current line of thinking goes: if there's a single upload sounding like a full band (or multiple musicians) in _one_ file under the account of only one musician (other than the final addition based the prior additions to a template) then that's a red flag.
I know that's tough on the folks who play everything on a track (or folks uploading a song with non-Wikiloops musicians) but there's a workaround to that: upload every track one cumulative (or single) file at a time.
I think most AI uploaders wouldn't be bothered to do lots of single files but there's always an exception (and arguably that'd be more creative).
My current line of thinking goes: if there's a single upload sounding like a full band (or multiple musicians) in _one_ file under the account of only one musician (other than the final addition based the prior additions to a template) then that's a red flag.
I know that's tough on the folks who play everything on a track (or folks uploading a song with non-Wikiloops musicians) but there's a workaround to that: upload every track one cumulative (or single) file at a time.
I think most AI uploaders wouldn't be bothered to do lots of single files but there's always an exception (and arguably that'd be more creative).
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cmdr_chill wrote:
My current line of thinking goes: if there's a single upload sounding like a full band (or multiple musicians) in _one_ file under the account of only one musician (other than the final addition based the prior additions to a template) then that's a red flag.
I know that's tough on the folks who play everything on a track (or folks uploading a song with non-Wikiloops musicians) but there's a workaround to that: upload every track one cumulative (or single) file at a time.
I think most AI uploaders wouldn't be bothered to do lots of single files but there's always an exception (and arguably that'd be more creative).
My current line of thinking goes: if there's a single upload sounding like a full band (or multiple musicians) in _one_ file under the account of only one musician (other than the final addition based the prior additions to a template) then that's a red flag.
I know that's tough on the folks who play everything on a track (or folks uploading a song with non-Wikiloops musicians) but there's a workaround to that: upload every track one cumulative (or single) file at a time.
I think most AI uploaders wouldn't be bothered to do lots of single files but there's always an exception (and arguably that'd be more creative).
This is one of those funny moments, I was thinking along the same lines and recently proposed the idea to maybe go stricter on those multi-instrument tracks to the moderators.
It might be possible to shift the focus towards "are all included instruments properly declared?" (something that can be verified without much need for discussion, and a much smaller error rate than trying to detect AI use and wronging some people as collateral damage) - and it might be possible to add a setting where you could choose to get to see such multi-instrument uploads or not.
If you'd choose not to, your chances of running into AI tracks are pretty low... all of this is still in a very early stage of thought, but it might be a good improvement to implement.
Topic change:
A some will notice the "hidden" post above, let me add that finger-pointing at individual members who have (or have not) broken some rule on wikiloops is not the way to find a solution, it is a way to divide this community of music-loving individuals. Stop the crusades, be respectful and tolerant.
If we let go of that respect, then wikiloops is broken before AI had a chance to take over.
+12
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cmdr_chill wrote:
Reflecting on the detection of AI a little further, I'm inclined towards personal judgement - having some practical form of "AI detector" human or otherwise seems a non-starter.
My current line of thinking goes: if there's a single upload sounding like a full band (or multiple musicians) in _one_ file under the account of only one musician (other than the final addition based the prior additions to a template) then that's a red flag.
I know that's tough on the folks who play everything on a track (or folks uploading a song with non-Wikiloops musicians) but there's a workaround to that: upload every track one cumulative (or single) file at a time.
I think most AI uploaders wouldn't be bothered to do lots of single files but there's always an exception (and arguably that'd be more creative).
Reflecting on the detection of AI a little further, I'm inclined towards personal judgement - having some practical form of "AI detector" human or otherwise seems a non-starter.
My current line of thinking goes: if there's a single upload sounding like a full band (or multiple musicians) in _one_ file under the account of only one musician (other than the final addition based the prior additions to a template) then that's a red flag.
I know that's tough on the folks who play everything on a track (or folks uploading a song with non-Wikiloops musicians) but there's a workaround to that: upload every track one cumulative (or single) file at a time.
I think most AI uploaders wouldn't be bothered to do lots of single files but there's always an exception (and arguably that'd be more creative).
I'm really far from being a AI enthusiast, but that solution would be ridiculously restrictive! If you need the separate tracks just ask. And what if we can't provide them? Could be an old mix we found on a computer that we wish to get finished with a solo or vocals, what's so bad about it? And what about the free members? They must wait 7 days before they can add another track to a template (and 30 days before they can upload a new template), so I understand why they upload multi-instruments tracks.
+2
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Dick wrote:
This is one of those funny moments, I was thinking along the same lines and recently proposed the idea to maybe go stricter on those multi-instrument tracks to the moderators.
It might be possible to shift the focus towards "are all included instruments properly declared?" (something that can be verified without much need for discussion, and a much smaller error rate than trying to detect AI use and wronging some people as collateral damage) - and it might be possible to add a setting where you could choose to get to see such multi-instrument uploads or not.
If you'd choose not to, your chances of running into AI tracks are pretty low... all of this is still in a very early stage of thought, but it might be a good improvement to implement.
Topic change:
A some will notice the "hidden" post above, let me add that finger-pointing at individual members who have (or have not) broken some rule on wikiloops is not the way to find a solution, it is a way to divide this community of music-loving individuals. Stop the crusades, be respectful and tolerant.
If we let go of that respect, then wikiloops is broken before AI had a chance to take over.
cmdr_chill wrote:
My current line of thinking goes: if there's a single upload sounding like a full band (or multiple musicians) in _one_ file under the account of only one musician (other than the final addition based the prior additions to a template) then that's a red flag.
I know that's tough on the folks who play everything on a track (or folks uploading a song with non-Wikiloops musicians) but there's a workaround to that: upload every track one cumulative (or single) file at a time.
I think most AI uploaders wouldn't be bothered to do lots of single files but there's always an exception (and arguably that'd be more creative).
My current line of thinking goes: if there's a single upload sounding like a full band (or multiple musicians) in _one_ file under the account of only one musician (other than the final addition based the prior additions to a template) then that's a red flag.
I know that's tough on the folks who play everything on a track (or folks uploading a song with non-Wikiloops musicians) but there's a workaround to that: upload every track one cumulative (or single) file at a time.
I think most AI uploaders wouldn't be bothered to do lots of single files but there's always an exception (and arguably that'd be more creative).
This is one of those funny moments, I was thinking along the same lines and recently proposed the idea to maybe go stricter on those multi-instrument tracks to the moderators.
It might be possible to shift the focus towards "are all included instruments properly declared?" (something that can be verified without much need for discussion, and a much smaller error rate than trying to detect AI use and wronging some people as collateral damage) - and it might be possible to add a setting where you could choose to get to see such multi-instrument uploads or not.
If you'd choose not to, your chances of running into AI tracks are pretty low... all of this is still in a very early stage of thought, but it might be a good improvement to implement.
Topic change:
A some will notice the "hidden" post above, let me add that finger-pointing at individual members who have (or have not) broken some rule on wikiloops is not the way to find a solution, it is a way to divide this community of music-loving individuals. Stop the crusades, be respectful and tolerant.
If we let go of that respect, then wikiloops is broken before AI had a chance to take over.
I do not see where the problem is. I have already published a recording made with a friend a long time ago. Without his part, my track alone would have made no sense. Besides, this recording didn't worry anyone since it was the piece that was shared the most. I think that having the honesty to specify the participation of a third party and to cite it should be enough to remove any suspicion of rigging. Several singers from wikiloops participated and I was delighted with their work. This piece took on a dimension that I didn't expect. The use of AI has no benefit and can only harm the person using it. I will never play on a piece that does not evoke any emotion for me and the latter is much more important than anything in music because it is human.
+1
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I think we are confusing current generative AI that cannot separate tracks and AI as a music production tool .
On the other hand, the feelings and emotions of a song do not have much to do with how it was composed or performed, taking into account that WL is ultimately canned music. It can move us, I assure you, any music does not matter if it is AI or if it is an ugly or evil guy.
But it is true that current AI is stereotypical music.
In some countries it is accepted and good music if it follows established stereotypes and that makes it great, it imitates styles very well. I'm getting off topic. I see it as positive to separate tracks, that's what this site is about. For now () would be an acceptable filter.
But I am committed to finding or creating a technological scale that also seems positive to me to know more about the tracks we upload.
On the other hand, the feelings and emotions of a song do not have much to do with how it was composed or performed, taking into account that WL is ultimately canned music. It can move us, I assure you, any music does not matter if it is AI or if it is an ugly or evil guy.
But it is true that current AI is stereotypical music.
In some countries it is accepted and good music if it follows established stereotypes and that makes it great, it imitates styles very well. I'm getting off topic. I see it as positive to separate tracks, that's what this site is about. For now () would be an acceptable filter.
But I am committed to finding or creating a technological scale that also seems positive to me to know more about the tracks we upload.
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Hello everyone. I’ll take a few minutes to say my piece. It’s the first time I’ve actually attended a forum. Basically, I care little or nothing about AI. I do not use it, I take note, since it is an inevitable process and is among us now. Despite being a man who still works in finance ( someone does not tolerate it maybe ) I can define myself a real musician , maybe in stages because of the short time, but still satisfied. Let’s not ruin the veracity of what is published, there are some valuable and authentic things. Strings that really vibrate, buttons that are pounded by real men. If you get a vibe, if you get goosebumps, that’s real music. Reading you, I was certain that you are men of thought, literate and rooted in your thoughts, and I really liked that. Music is like humor. You have to smile, who does not smile listening to a well-performed piece or in front of a comic tragi situation, probably has a not very high IQ. I conclude by thinking that I am more afraid of narrow-mindedness and closed-mindedness, but I am convinced that this is not between us. Good music to everyone.
Old Italian proverb: Who has more head, use it.<3
Old Italian proverb: Who has more head, use it.<3
+8
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I thought I would give AI the opportunity to chime in on this discussion. I asked ChatGPT "Should AI be allowed to create music on Wikiloops?" AI response below :)
Allowing AI to create music on Wikiloops raises several ethical and practical considerations that should be carefully weighed:
1. **Creativity and Authenticity**: One concern is whether AI-generated music can truly be considered creative or authentic in the same way human-created music is. Music often reflects human emotions, experiences, and cultural contexts. AI lacks these human elements, which could impact the emotional depth and authenticity of the music.
2. **Intellectual Property and Attribution**: If AI generates music on Wikiloops, questions arise about ownership and attribution. Who owns the rights to AI-generated music? Should credit be given to the AI system or its programmer? Ensuring proper attribution and respect for intellectual property rights is crucial.
3. **Community and Participation**: Wikiloops is a platform where musicians collaborate and share their creative work. Introducing AI-generated music could affect the dynamics of this community. Some musicians might embrace AI-generated tracks as collaborative tools, while others might perceive them as threats to human creativity and expression.
4. **Quality and Aesthetics**: The quality and aesthetic value of AI-generated music can vary widely depending on the algorithms and data used. Users of Wikiloops might have mixed opinions about the musical merit of AI-generated tracks compared to human-created compositions.
5. **Ethical Implications**: There are broader ethical implications to consider, such as the potential impact on employment for human musicians if AI-generated music becomes prevalent. Balancing technological advancement with ethical considerations about the role of AI in creative industries is essential.
Ultimately, the decision to allow AI-generated music on Wikiloops should involve careful consideration of these factors, as well as active participation and feedback from the Wikiloops community. Clear guidelines on attribution, ownership, and the role of AI in musical collaboration would also be necessary to navigate this evolving landscape responsibly.
Allowing AI to create music on Wikiloops raises several ethical and practical considerations that should be carefully weighed:
1. **Creativity and Authenticity**: One concern is whether AI-generated music can truly be considered creative or authentic in the same way human-created music is. Music often reflects human emotions, experiences, and cultural contexts. AI lacks these human elements, which could impact the emotional depth and authenticity of the music.
2. **Intellectual Property and Attribution**: If AI generates music on Wikiloops, questions arise about ownership and attribution. Who owns the rights to AI-generated music? Should credit be given to the AI system or its programmer? Ensuring proper attribution and respect for intellectual property rights is crucial.
3. **Community and Participation**: Wikiloops is a platform where musicians collaborate and share their creative work. Introducing AI-generated music could affect the dynamics of this community. Some musicians might embrace AI-generated tracks as collaborative tools, while others might perceive them as threats to human creativity and expression.
4. **Quality and Aesthetics**: The quality and aesthetic value of AI-generated music can vary widely depending on the algorithms and data used. Users of Wikiloops might have mixed opinions about the musical merit of AI-generated tracks compared to human-created compositions.
5. **Ethical Implications**: There are broader ethical implications to consider, such as the potential impact on employment for human musicians if AI-generated music becomes prevalent. Balancing technological advancement with ethical considerations about the role of AI in creative industries is essential.
Ultimately, the decision to allow AI-generated music on Wikiloops should involve careful consideration of these factors, as well as active participation and feedback from the Wikiloops community. Clear guidelines on attribution, ownership, and the role of AI in musical collaboration would also be necessary to navigate this evolving landscape responsibly.
+6
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Straight from the virtual horse's mouth:
How do we keep AI out of wikiloops?
ChatGPT
Keeping AI out of Wikiloops or any other community-driven platform primarily involves setting clear guidelines, implementing technical measures, and fostering a community culture that values human creativity and interaction. Here are some strategies that could be considered:
Terms of Service and Community Guidelines: Clearly define what is acceptable content and activities on the platform. Explicitly state whether AI-generated content is allowed or prohibited.
Manual Review and Moderation: Have human moderators review content submissions to ensure they meet community guidelines and are not AI-generated. This can involve checking for signs of automation or AI-generated patterns.
Use of CAPTCHA and Anti-Bot Measures: Implement CAPTCHA or similar mechanisms during account creation or content submission to prevent automated bots, including AI-generated bots, from participating.
Educational Campaigns: Educate users about the importance of human creativity and the potential ethical concerns related to AI-generated content. Encourage users to contribute and appreciate genuine human creativity.
Technological Detection Tools: Explore technological solutions that can detect AI-generated content. This may involve machine learning algorithms designed to identify patterns indicative of AI-generated text, images, or music.
Community Reporting: Encourage users to report suspicious or potentially AI-generated content. Establish a reporting system that allows quick action against violations of community guidelines.
Partnership and Collaboration: Work with AI researchers and developers to understand emerging AI technologies and how they might impact platforms like Wikiloops. Collaborate to develop strategies for responsible use of AI in creative platforms.
Continuous Adaptation: As AI technology evolves, regularly review and update strategies and policies to stay ahead of new challenges related to AI-generated content.
By combining these approaches, Wikiloops can create a welcoming environment that celebrates human creativity while mitigating the risks associated with AI-generated content.
How do we keep AI out of wikiloops?
ChatGPT
Keeping AI out of Wikiloops or any other community-driven platform primarily involves setting clear guidelines, implementing technical measures, and fostering a community culture that values human creativity and interaction. Here are some strategies that could be considered:
Terms of Service and Community Guidelines: Clearly define what is acceptable content and activities on the platform. Explicitly state whether AI-generated content is allowed or prohibited.
Manual Review and Moderation: Have human moderators review content submissions to ensure they meet community guidelines and are not AI-generated. This can involve checking for signs of automation or AI-generated patterns.
Use of CAPTCHA and Anti-Bot Measures: Implement CAPTCHA or similar mechanisms during account creation or content submission to prevent automated bots, including AI-generated bots, from participating.
Educational Campaigns: Educate users about the importance of human creativity and the potential ethical concerns related to AI-generated content. Encourage users to contribute and appreciate genuine human creativity.
Technological Detection Tools: Explore technological solutions that can detect AI-generated content. This may involve machine learning algorithms designed to identify patterns indicative of AI-generated text, images, or music.
Community Reporting: Encourage users to report suspicious or potentially AI-generated content. Establish a reporting system that allows quick action against violations of community guidelines.
Partnership and Collaboration: Work with AI researchers and developers to understand emerging AI technologies and how they might impact platforms like Wikiloops. Collaborate to develop strategies for responsible use of AI in creative platforms.
Continuous Adaptation: As AI technology evolves, regularly review and update strategies and policies to stay ahead of new challenges related to AI-generated content.
By combining these approaches, Wikiloops can create a welcoming environment that celebrates human creativity while mitigating the risks associated with AI-generated content.
+3
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I'm just an old school player, singer songwriter. I have no interest in using AI in my music but honestly I don't know how it's possible to "keep it out of wikiloops". Speaking just for myself I still don't see why that would matter unless I'm missing some sort of legality issue.
I just hope wikiloops can remain the global musical community that it has been. I've been all over the internet and I haven't seen anything quite like it. I've learned a lot from you folks, heck I didn't even know what a DAW was until I joined 3 years ago! :D Be happy and keep jammin Y'all! Cheers Mike
I just hope wikiloops can remain the global musical community that it has been. I've been all over the internet and I haven't seen anything quite like it. I've learned a lot from you folks, heck I didn't even know what a DAW was until I joined 3 years ago! :D Be happy and keep jammin Y'all! Cheers Mike
+12
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Just in case anyone`s interested:
https://bbc.com/news/articles/ckrrr8yelzvo
BUT...the real fun part behind this news is what is not mentioned in the article: Each of the major labels is (apparently) investing in their own AI music companies.
https://bbc.com/news/articles/ckrrr8yelzvo
BUT...the real fun part behind this news is what is not mentioned in the article: Each of the major labels is (apparently) investing in their own AI music companies.
+2
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Oh! The music status business is in danger!
Very interesting!
That doesn't affect us. Fresh wind blows.
List of technological levels in a track
https://www.wikiloops.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=3783
Very interesting!
That doesn't affect us. Fresh wind blows.
List of technological levels in a track
https://www.wikiloops.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=3783
+1
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[youtube]1bZ0OSEViyo?si=ZaZK8ZAzA24mv_ZQ[/youtube]
+5
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I leave mistakes in deliberately so as to sound human. Brian Eno was the first to really talk about this as a producer <3
+7
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rootshell wrote:
[youtube]1bZ0OSEViyo?si=ZaZK8ZAzA24mv_ZQ[/youtube]
[youtube]1bZ0OSEViyo?si=ZaZK8ZAzA24mv_ZQ[/youtube]
That is somehow interesting, but more or less what all already know.
INteresting is the part about the quantization, because I really sometimes wonder why people like to do that.
I also loved records,but already in the form of a cd the music lost some of it, just beecause the size of the cover. The value of the music though is determined by me. What i love about music platforms , I can listen to music I never got my hands on when i was young, just because it was difficult to get.B)
+3
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Interesting discussion. AI when it is used for melodies, vox..."major" components of a song to me are a no go in any form. This kind of music really (so far) doesn't come across with the same level of emotion and creativity as human made music, and music is supposed to do that. Illicit emotion in the listener expressed by the creativity of the creator of the music. That's my take on the overall.
To the use of programmed drums...I haven't read through everyone's opinion, but have not seen this take on it so I will submit my thoughts here. To me, very rarely are the drums the featured element of a musical piece. For what most of us do hear with programmed drums, they merely serve as a "better" click track to approximate some of the accents you are wanting to hear in your piece of music that a click won't do. This (hopefully) makes it a little more enjoyable also for the listener or end jam track user BUT not something that makes or breaks the piece.
Interesting thread for sure.
To the use of programmed drums...I haven't read through everyone's opinion, but have not seen this take on it so I will submit my thoughts here. To me, very rarely are the drums the featured element of a musical piece. For what most of us do hear with programmed drums, they merely serve as a "better" click track to approximate some of the accents you are wanting to hear in your piece of music that a click won't do. This (hopefully) makes it a little more enjoyable also for the listener or end jam track user BUT not something that makes or breaks the piece.
Interesting thread for sure.
+3
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Danalyze45 wrote:
To me, very rarely are the drums the featured element of a musical piece.
To me, very rarely are the drums the featured element of a musical piece.
Featured in a different way perhaps.
A talented drummer with enthusiasm really wakes up my muse. Perhaps because their energy is funneled through physical action and we instinctually respond to it.
Now I'm imagining some tribal ritual that starts with someone mouse clicking to start a drum track. I digress.
Brad
+4
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I suspect AI may be thought of the same way that DAW drummers are now used. It seems reasonable to use it to complete an idea that couldn’t be gotten any other way. When I get in front of my DAW I already feel like Superman compared with what I could accomplish just in front of a microphone without it. A drumming track could take a week or more (as a non-drummer). I have only used AI briefly for making images about a year ago and don’t intend to use it for music.
The scary thing about AI was the option of create an image “in the style of” (a famous artist). IF the same can be done with music by scraping websites, it might be possible for someone to decide to add sax in the style of Wade or guitar like one of the 5000 tracks from GlezBass. This is obviously a place to draw the line at acceptability but or perhaps it’s just a case of creator’s paranoia. It would be the difference in feeling between a button-pushing programmer and a real musician who would get guilt and no satisfaction from this kind of creation. I already feel that when inserting DAW loops unless it blends perfectly with something already partially finished.
Finally, because I accept that my work can easily be copied and repurposed elsewhere it actually makes me hope so—that someone likes it that much. :) The chance of being heard at all with the constant churn and ease of commercial sites to find new artists and sounds reduces the chance. I pay for Tidal as a way to practice and play with whole albums of my favorite artists (even from the ’60’s!) although I have less time for that as I have gotten more involved with WL. (Thank you).
The scary thing about AI was the option of create an image “in the style of” (a famous artist). IF the same can be done with music by scraping websites, it might be possible for someone to decide to add sax in the style of Wade or guitar like one of the 5000 tracks from GlezBass. This is obviously a place to draw the line at acceptability but or perhaps it’s just a case of creator’s paranoia. It would be the difference in feeling between a button-pushing programmer and a real musician who would get guilt and no satisfaction from this kind of creation. I already feel that when inserting DAW loops unless it blends perfectly with something already partially finished.
Finally, because I accept that my work can easily be copied and repurposed elsewhere it actually makes me hope so—that someone likes it that much. :) The chance of being heard at all with the constant churn and ease of commercial sites to find new artists and sounds reduces the chance. I pay for Tidal as a way to practice and play with whole albums of my favorite artists (even from the ’60’s!) although I have less time for that as I have gotten more involved with WL. (Thank you).
+2
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