Joe's got music shared online - read on
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First, let me make an apology to Moonchild and FrankieJazz who have discovered their participations online. I have made every effort to list you as the primary artist. Read on.
So I guess we all know who Joe is now, and that's fine, I'm not trying to hide myself from anyone. I'm an artist in Los Angeles and have had a lifetime of music industry work. I founded Retrospect Records (though I did sell it in 2006), I have toured the world with has-been 80's rock bands and over the years I have worked as a publicist for a long list of musicians, studios and engineers. This is where the music being online comes in.
Three years ago I discovered Wikiloops and got involved. It's amazing! Learn from playing and being involved, there's nothing better. I started sharing wikiloops with industry friends an all levels of artistry and with dozens and dozens of professionals every year at the NAMM convention. Some people have joined wikiloops and tried, others share it in conversation and social media, but I can see it's helped grow the community.
The biggest issue I have had is when I try to share the music, if it isn't on Spotify they simply won't listen, sometimes people ask if it's on youtube, but most of the time they want a Spotify link. No one is going to Wikiloops to listen to it. It's just the way it is.
I began organizing tracks in listenable albums. I made a few to share on my website, though people don't typically go there either, and tried a number of times to reach out to people through their online resources, Alice, Moonchild, (neither have responded to me) and a few others who did respond but aren't planning on returning to the loops but they didn't care.
The common way to get the music into a shareable Spotify link is Distrokid, for me anyway, and I bought a Distrokid account and loaded up tracks as albums to share where they can simply hit the play button and listen through it all. That's why it's all listed under my name, I have one account and It costs money. I can't make an account for every album.
Understand, it's hard to make an album out of random tracks so I did organize similar tracks by artists I've worked with and yes, some of the tracks were renamed. You'll have to go with me on that, what I've done makes sense to people who listen, I'm not new to this industry.
Through Spotify, the music makes literally nothing monetarily. In 3 years the account has made $13 - Distrokid cost $85 a year. I do, however, offer this. As each track has an IRSC number, if you belong to a PRO, like ASCAP or BMI, send me your IPI and I will list it on the tracks. You'll make a sliver of a cent, but you'll be listed on the track with your PRO organization.
I did what I could to list all artists by name and to highlight them as the prime artist who is responsible for the music. I don't know that I can get anyone a record contract, but I am doing what I can to shine a light on your individual artistry along with the fact that this amazing music was made by people who have never met, all in different parts of the world, all with different influence, but when grouped together, it becomes something you can click and listen through and find happiness in.
With all of this said, I'm not taking advantage of anyone, but to individually ask each and every person through wikiloops and wait for responses, get hems and haws - I wouldn't have had any of this to share with anyone, and it's been shared with hundreds of my industry peers. Sometimes you have to ask forgiveness later instead of permission now.
** One thing I had hoped was that I could gather interest with the Moonchild album and find a festival that would take a performance in the LA to Arizona area. I can get the musicians, I can't get the funding but Moonchild is literally a few hours away from me and I had hoped we would be able to perform some of those tracks live together. My wife and I are smitten with her, she's great! **
If you want it down, let me know what you want down, however, if you want to share your artistry with people, I have made it possible for them to hear albums of your works in the public domain and at my own expense of time and money. Share it with them, the albums are great! Please accept it as a gift and reach out to me for a zipped file of the completed album in .wav format and I will send you the hi-res final mixes to do with as you wish.
In regard to the dozen or so people who have included my works on their music accounts, some asked, some didn't, and there have been many, but please continue to do so and spread the music as far and wide as you can. As I said, this isn't about making the $13 it's made, it's about getting the music in front of people who will listen to it and recognize you, all of us, for the works we create and to help wikiloops thrive.
Note: I have not uploaded anything featuring others where I didn't perform. You will all have your own personal opinions on what I have done here, if you want to make it bigger and better, work with it and share it so people can enjoy your albums, or if you unanimously prefer, I will simply go from wikiloops and take all the music down from public view.
Best regards, please respond to me directly in a private message,
Joe
So I guess we all know who Joe is now, and that's fine, I'm not trying to hide myself from anyone. I'm an artist in Los Angeles and have had a lifetime of music industry work. I founded Retrospect Records (though I did sell it in 2006), I have toured the world with has-been 80's rock bands and over the years I have worked as a publicist for a long list of musicians, studios and engineers. This is where the music being online comes in.
Three years ago I discovered Wikiloops and got involved. It's amazing! Learn from playing and being involved, there's nothing better. I started sharing wikiloops with industry friends an all levels of artistry and with dozens and dozens of professionals every year at the NAMM convention. Some people have joined wikiloops and tried, others share it in conversation and social media, but I can see it's helped grow the community.
The biggest issue I have had is when I try to share the music, if it isn't on Spotify they simply won't listen, sometimes people ask if it's on youtube, but most of the time they want a Spotify link. No one is going to Wikiloops to listen to it. It's just the way it is.
I began organizing tracks in listenable albums. I made a few to share on my website, though people don't typically go there either, and tried a number of times to reach out to people through their online resources, Alice, Moonchild, (neither have responded to me) and a few others who did respond but aren't planning on returning to the loops but they didn't care.
The common way to get the music into a shareable Spotify link is Distrokid, for me anyway, and I bought a Distrokid account and loaded up tracks as albums to share where they can simply hit the play button and listen through it all. That's why it's all listed under my name, I have one account and It costs money. I can't make an account for every album.
Understand, it's hard to make an album out of random tracks so I did organize similar tracks by artists I've worked with and yes, some of the tracks were renamed. You'll have to go with me on that, what I've done makes sense to people who listen, I'm not new to this industry.
Through Spotify, the music makes literally nothing monetarily. In 3 years the account has made $13 - Distrokid cost $85 a year. I do, however, offer this. As each track has an IRSC number, if you belong to a PRO, like ASCAP or BMI, send me your IPI and I will list it on the tracks. You'll make a sliver of a cent, but you'll be listed on the track with your PRO organization.
I did what I could to list all artists by name and to highlight them as the prime artist who is responsible for the music. I don't know that I can get anyone a record contract, but I am doing what I can to shine a light on your individual artistry along with the fact that this amazing music was made by people who have never met, all in different parts of the world, all with different influence, but when grouped together, it becomes something you can click and listen through and find happiness in.
With all of this said, I'm not taking advantage of anyone, but to individually ask each and every person through wikiloops and wait for responses, get hems and haws - I wouldn't have had any of this to share with anyone, and it's been shared with hundreds of my industry peers. Sometimes you have to ask forgiveness later instead of permission now.
** One thing I had hoped was that I could gather interest with the Moonchild album and find a festival that would take a performance in the LA to Arizona area. I can get the musicians, I can't get the funding but Moonchild is literally a few hours away from me and I had hoped we would be able to perform some of those tracks live together. My wife and I are smitten with her, she's great! **
If you want it down, let me know what you want down, however, if you want to share your artistry with people, I have made it possible for them to hear albums of your works in the public domain and at my own expense of time and money. Share it with them, the albums are great! Please accept it as a gift and reach out to me for a zipped file of the completed album in .wav format and I will send you the hi-res final mixes to do with as you wish.
In regard to the dozen or so people who have included my works on their music accounts, some asked, some didn't, and there have been many, but please continue to do so and spread the music as far and wide as you can. As I said, this isn't about making the $13 it's made, it's about getting the music in front of people who will listen to it and recognize you, all of us, for the works we create and to help wikiloops thrive.
Note: I have not uploaded anything featuring others where I didn't perform. You will all have your own personal opinions on what I have done here, if you want to make it bigger and better, work with it and share it so people can enjoy your albums, or if you unanimously prefer, I will simply go from wikiloops and take all the music down from public view.
Best regards, please respond to me directly in a private message,
Joe
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Tofzegrit wrote:
Not hop hop hop!
DESPICABLE
Not hop hop hop!
DESPICABLE
I'm sorry you feel that sharing the music and raising attention is despicable. You've been presented to many people with your artistry and been recognized for it in conversations. No one has made money off you but many peole have enjoyed listening to your talents. if that's despicable, let it be.
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When you ask permission from someone and don't get a reply that does not mean yes, help yourself.
Joe, you seem to believe everyone must want what you want where in reality wikiloops is an oasis away from that. It's not about money, it's the freedom to be creative which you stomp on when you help yourself and spread it around, even trying to sell it. It's beyond rude dude. your actions are going to make people think twice before posting up music.
I'll repeat what I said in the chat - you claim to be doing that to spread the word about wikiloops. Please link to where you've mentioned wikiloops on your site because all I see is you bigging yourself up as producer/arranger/co-writer, giving a very firm impression that you are somehow key to that music's existence.
Joe, you seem to believe everyone must want what you want where in reality wikiloops is an oasis away from that. It's not about money, it's the freedom to be creative which you stomp on when you help yourself and spread it around, even trying to sell it. It's beyond rude dude. your actions are going to make people think twice before posting up music.
I'll repeat what I said in the chat - you claim to be doing that to spread the word about wikiloops. Please link to where you've mentioned wikiloops on your site because all I see is you bigging yourself up as producer/arranger/co-writer, giving a very firm impression that you are somehow key to that music's existence.
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I like your bass playing by the way.
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I understand the good intentions but it doesn't convince me. You should understand that some of us have also been professional artists. For example, only Joedolan appears on Amazon music and Apple music
For example, did you put my name on Amazon music? I don't think so
https://www.amazon.com/Laltra-casa-Como-Seconda-Serie/dp/B0CL1YV3XM
For example, did you put my name on Amazon music? I don't think so
https://www.amazon.com/Laltra-casa-Como-Seconda-Serie/dp/B0CL1YV3XM
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zedders wrote:
When you ask permission from someone and don't get a reply that does not mean yes, help yourself.
Joe, you seem to believe everyone must want what you want where in reality wikiloops is an oasis away from that. It's not about money, it's the freedom to be creative which you stomp on when you help yourself and spread it around, even trying to sell it. It's beyond rude dude. your actions are going to make people think twice before posting up music.
I'll repeat what I said in the chat - you claim to be doing that to spread the word about wikiloops. Please link to where you've mentioned wikiloops on your site because all I see is you bigging yourself up as producer/arranger/co-writer, giving a very firm impression that you are somehow key to that music's existence.
When you ask permission from someone and don't get a reply that does not mean yes, help yourself.
Joe, you seem to believe everyone must want what you want where in reality wikiloops is an oasis away from that. It's not about money, it's the freedom to be creative which you stomp on when you help yourself and spread it around, even trying to sell it. It's beyond rude dude. your actions are going to make people think twice before posting up music.
I'll repeat what I said in the chat - you claim to be doing that to spread the word about wikiloops. Please link to where you've mentioned wikiloops on your site because all I see is you bigging yourself up as producer/arranger/co-writer, giving a very firm impression that you are somehow key to that music's existence.
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To Joe:
In two minds about this "incident": You`ve always been helpful and friendly in your comments and in the occasional mail exchanges that we`ve had. Plus, you`ve contributed a ton to making Wikiloops the great place it is. In that sense, I would not assume devious behaviour.
Maybe it`s just a case that you approached this thing from the wrong direction. Rather than pulling something out of the Loops to present it to the outside world it might have been better to think about how the outside world can look into the Loops.
Regarding credits etc. I think there are several aspects to consider. Crediting someone for their input is a no-brainer and I`d even call it simple decency. But the basic requirement before crediting is getting the permission from the artists. That seems to be what is missing.
Sidenote: I`m not even sure that it would be sufficient if the involved artists gave their permission as the main rights holder is Wikiloops. So what you may unintentionally have done is showcase Wikiloops without Wikiloops consent and - this is what makes me wonder a bit - without even mentioning Wikiloops.
I`m sure everything can be sorted out between you and Dick and you and the Loopers involved (2 separate problem areas) and maybe there can be lessons learned for us all on finding ways to get the world to come to Wikiloops instead of Wikiloops going (uncontrolled) out into the world.
I`m not known for building bridges but I hope that all involved can cross the river of anger (great title) without getting their feet wet and can focus on having fun on the Loops again soonest.
In two minds about this "incident": You`ve always been helpful and friendly in your comments and in the occasional mail exchanges that we`ve had. Plus, you`ve contributed a ton to making Wikiloops the great place it is. In that sense, I would not assume devious behaviour.
Maybe it`s just a case that you approached this thing from the wrong direction. Rather than pulling something out of the Loops to present it to the outside world it might have been better to think about how the outside world can look into the Loops.
Regarding credits etc. I think there are several aspects to consider. Crediting someone for their input is a no-brainer and I`d even call it simple decency. But the basic requirement before crediting is getting the permission from the artists. That seems to be what is missing.
Sidenote: I`m not even sure that it would be sufficient if the involved artists gave their permission as the main rights holder is Wikiloops. So what you may unintentionally have done is showcase Wikiloops without Wikiloops consent and - this is what makes me wonder a bit - without even mentioning Wikiloops.
I`m sure everything can be sorted out between you and Dick and you and the Loopers involved (2 separate problem areas) and maybe there can be lessons learned for us all on finding ways to get the world to come to Wikiloops instead of Wikiloops going (uncontrolled) out into the world.
I`m not known for building bridges but I hope that all involved can cross the river of anger (great title) without getting their feet wet and can focus on having fun on the Loops again soonest.
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frankiejazz wrote:
I understand the good intentions but it doesn't convince me. You should understand that some of us have also been professional artists. For example, only Joedolan appears on Amazon music and Apple music
For example, did you put my name on Amazon music? I don't think so
https://www.amazon.com/Laltra-casa-Como-Seconda-Serie/dp/B0CL1YV3XM
I must add my disappointment for an artist I like.I thought the author of this was not from the community
I understand the good intentions but it doesn't convince me. You should understand that some of us have also been professional artists. For example, only Joedolan appears on Amazon music and Apple music
For example, did you put my name on Amazon music? I don't think so
https://www.amazon.com/Laltra-casa-Como-Seconda-Serie/dp/B0CL1YV3XM
I must add my disappointment for an artist I like.I thought the author of this was not from the community
It appears as Joe Dolan because I uploaded the music through Distrokid, the account is my name. I can't afford an account to upload every piece of music under everyone elses name.
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MySounds wrote:
To Joe:
In two minds about this "incident": You`ve always been helpful and friendly in your comments and in the occasional mail exchanges that we`ve had. Plus, you`ve contributed a ton to making Wikiloops the great place it is. In that sense, I would not assume devious behaviour.
Maybe it`s just a case that you approached this thing from the wrong direction. Rather than pulling something out of the Loops to present it to the outside world it might have been better to think about how the outside world can look into the Loops.
Regarding credits etc. I think there are several aspects to consider. Crediting someone for their input is a no-brainer and I`d even call it simple decency. But the basic requirement before crediting is getting the permission from the artists. That seems to be what is missing.
Sidenote: I`m not even sure that it would be sufficient if the involved artists gave their permission as the main rights holder is Wikiloops. So what you may unintentionally have done is showcase Wikiloops without Wikiloops consent and - this is what makes me wonder a bit - without even mentioning Wikiloops.
I`m sure everything can be sorted out between you and Dick and you and the Loopers involved (2 separate problem areas) and maybe there can be lessons learned for us all on finding ways to get the world to come to Wikiloops instead of Wikiloops going (uncontrolled) out into the world.
I`m not known for building bridges but I hope that all involved can cross the river of anger (great title) without getting their feet wet and can focus on having fun on the Loops again soonest.
To Joe:
In two minds about this "incident": You`ve always been helpful and friendly in your comments and in the occasional mail exchanges that we`ve had. Plus, you`ve contributed a ton to making Wikiloops the great place it is. In that sense, I would not assume devious behaviour.
Maybe it`s just a case that you approached this thing from the wrong direction. Rather than pulling something out of the Loops to present it to the outside world it might have been better to think about how the outside world can look into the Loops.
Regarding credits etc. I think there are several aspects to consider. Crediting someone for their input is a no-brainer and I`d even call it simple decency. But the basic requirement before crediting is getting the permission from the artists. That seems to be what is missing.
Sidenote: I`m not even sure that it would be sufficient if the involved artists gave their permission as the main rights holder is Wikiloops. So what you may unintentionally have done is showcase Wikiloops without Wikiloops consent and - this is what makes me wonder a bit - without even mentioning Wikiloops.
I`m sure everything can be sorted out between you and Dick and you and the Loopers involved (2 separate problem areas) and maybe there can be lessons learned for us all on finding ways to get the world to come to Wikiloops instead of Wikiloops going (uncontrolled) out into the world.
I`m not known for building bridges but I hope that all involved can cross the river of anger (great title) without getting their feet wet and can focus on having fun on the Loops again soonest.
It has all happened this way because I can't convince people to visit this website. They ask for Spotify, so it's uploaded through Distrokid and it goes everywhere. it's on bandcamp because that's what people asked for, not to buy it, but to hear it, nobody is paying for a CD anywhere. You people think i need to "steal" music I worked hours on perfecting for listening? I have my own world of music, I'm participating in this with you and it's amazing how few people want anyone to hear any of this music.
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JoeOnBass wrote:
It has all happened this way because I can't convince people to visit this website. They ask for Spotify, so it's uploaded through Distrokid and it goes everywhere. it's on bandcamp because that's what people asked for, not to buy it, but to hear it, nobody is paying for a CD anywhere. You people think i need to "steal" music I worked hours on perfecting for listening? I have my own world of music, I'm participating in this with you and it's amazing how few people want anyone to hear any of this music.
It has all happened this way because I can't convince people to visit this website. They ask for Spotify, so it's uploaded through Distrokid and it goes everywhere. it's on bandcamp because that's what people asked for, not to buy it, but to hear it, nobody is paying for a CD anywhere. You people think i need to "steal" music I worked hours on perfecting for listening? I have my own world of music, I'm participating in this with you and it's amazing how few people want anyone to hear any of this music.
The two main problems for me :
- You put a price on Wikiloops tracks (on Bandcamp)
- You copyright Wikiloops tracks (and under your sole name)
Then all your justifications... Really want to believe you, but since most of us only know you from Wikiloops, it's hard to trust someone we barely know, sorry. I know you don't make money with this music, but let's imagine one day you start making a little bit of money with Wikiloops material, what would you do then? To me it doesn't sound too good, you should not copyright and sell those tracks. I think you should have thought all this a little better. Come on I'm sure you knew it would sooner or later have irritated some Wikiloopers because it's obvious it doesn't sound right.
There's a simple way to solve that problem, JUST PUT IT FOR FREE. Or maybe you feel that if it's free it doesn't look important and then nobody wants to listen to it... Why have I the feeling you're selling a product? Why this urge? Like "quick, I need to tell the world about those tracks and Wikiloops (but let's not mention Wikiloops in the process!)". Sounds weird to me. And that phony label : "Handle Records is an indie label featuring works from producer and bassist Joe Dolan in Los Angeles, CA. Handle makes quality albums available by artists you want to know. Visit today for music you won't find on other labels."... it's like you want to turn Wikiloops into Wikiwood or Hollyloops... is this a movie? Spinal Tap? :D
I mean it's so obvious you should not do such a thing that the whole situation is ridiculously funny :D I don't know, just makes me want to laugh! Like I said I feel like in a comedy :D April fools?
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Okay, so, here is this thread waiting for my .2 cent,
and people are sending me messages inquiring on my view on this whole situation.
First of all, I would like to thank the previous posters for maintaining a basic level of friendlyness and constructive thinking. This is not the norm online, and it once more shows the quality of this community, thanks for that.
I also appreciate Joes willingness to share his motives and face our responses, that takes guts, and I respect that.
Let me be honest, as you probably know me by now:
When I learned about the findings on Bandcamp etc and someone dropped the name JoeDolan, I was not sure whom it was, but I instantly thought: "Damn, I hope that's not JoeOnBass". Je and me have been in touch for a couple of years, and I got to know him as a true supporter of wikiloops. I even have a picture of him entering the NAMM music fair wearing a wikiloops hoodie, which is something of a trophy to me, as I've never been to NAMM and feel a little flattered by the thought.
And now this (I was truly not aware of the whole distribution thing).
Now, that being said, it does not feel easy to be called out as the judge, personally, but I am responsible for communicating the wikiloops position in all this, whether I like to or not.
Whilst Joe has already stated some of his motives for ignoring some rules, I guess it's my chore to re-state what the rules are, and why they are what they are.
Keep in mind - some new users will stumble onto this thread and take some bits of information, so, we better make sure to clarify what this is all about here.
We alo should remove any referrences to Joes full name eventually, as I see little benefit to this story becoming the top result on google for his name, see what I mean?
OK, so, the rules say that:
- you may only use wikiloops tracks for private use, commercial redistribution is explicitly excluded by the wikiloops public license for good reason.
- I think it is common perception that commercial use starts the second one makes money, regardless of that being pennies or grands.
- We have established some sort of "grey zone policy" over the course of the past decades, which can be summarized as: We will tolerate our music being shared online, even if there are commercial players in the chain (like for instance YouTube or other social media outlets, all of which are commercial enterprises without doubt), but the submitter does not make any direct financial profit, so, such "re-publications" have been tolerated, if then there was a proper credit and ideally a link to wikiloops in sight.
These are the communities rules, what shall I say, they deserve respect.
Even if you feel like they should be reviewed, limit ones options too much and keep one outside out of the marketplaces, that does not give you any right to just ignore the rules.
I don't really feel this needs a lot of discussion, does it?
I believe all of us have a understanding why people like to share stuff on their "regular" channels, and -assumed that a link to wikiloops is present- appreciate the being showcased.
Looking at Joes actions, I can't possibly ignore that a couple of red lines were crossed here, and no matter how much I believe in Joes good intentions or am willing to discuss the limitations created by the wikiloops rules, I cannot possibly end up without objecting to what happened here.
From my point of view, here are the mistakes that need to be corrected, in order of relevance:
- No sales. The money making without the involved users consent needs to stop immediately. I know the revenue might be neglectible, but that is no excuse, sorry.
Set the price to $0 and the biggest flaw is corrected. If that is not possible, please take down.
- Crediting the users and wikiloops: Some of the listings are missing individual participants, all of them are missing any notion of wikiloops, not to speak of a clickable link to wikiloops (the public license explicitly asks for a reference to itself by link in order to stay valid). See if that can be fixed and fix it, otherwise, remove.
It's the rules Joe, what else am I to do than ask you to respect them?
I feel those two things need to be corrected, and then we might be able to forget about the irritation caused by our fellow member Joe.
This does not call for a ban from the wikiloops community in my books, as I do not feel there is malicious intent at all.
So much for the "wikiloops position" I have been asked to state.
-*-
Let me add some additional thoughts and bits of information, and also reply to some of Joes thoughts, just to make sure there are no future misunderstandings.
@Joe: I feel some of your reasoning is correct, even if it does not justify breaking the rules.
You are neither the first nor the only musician who felt not being able to showcase ones wikiloops music on the listener platforms such as spotify was a flaw to wikiloops.
You are correct people will reject visiting unknown websites and ask for the usual suspects, that's how lazy people are.
I can feel the pain of not being allowed to go there.
I can see the huge amout of work you invested into remastering & presenting this music in a more professional context. FrankieJazz music sounds even more high gloss on amazon, simply because the interface, the price and the lack of links to some unknown collab platform gives one a different impression of value. That's psychology, and we can easily agree on that working out. You did well on the mastering, too, no doubt.
What you have been missing (besides the simple wikiloops rule-break covered earlier), and what strikes me as very unprofessional TBH are the legal implementations attached to re-publishing a collaboration effort thru a vendor like distrokid onto several platforms.
I mean, distrokid will have a license agreement you will have to opt in to, so they can opt in to all the platforms terms & agreements prior to submitting "your" track.
There needs to be a legally valid chain of one player reassuring the others "I have the right to do what I'm doing here, and I hereby grant you the right to do whatever your platform does with the content I am submitting".
As you obviously did not have the consent in the first place, the whole chain of legal agreements is broken right from the start, and all of the involved services have a good right to put the blame on you and play the "we were misinformed" game in court. That really is basic legal stuff, and I'm surprised that did not occur to you.
Arguing "Well, Elvis and Michael Jackson never called me back, so, I feel they gave me consent to publish their work in my name...", c'mon man, that can't be seriously serious, when you want to be part of any professional stuff. (if anyone laughed reading this, good, let's get back to laughing soon please).
Also, what if I acted identical to you and submitted my remix of frankieJazz track via my personal distrokid account to the very same platforms. Ever wondered what will happen if some content Id tracking system notices there are two players submitting the same music via different distrokid accounts? That will raise red flags on the various platforms, and your & my reputation will suffer, as we have just proved neither of us had the exclusive rights on the material.
The only legal entitiy that might possibly be able to submit several renditions of the same wikiloops template without getting into these content ID conflicts might be wikiloops itself, as a single pipeline. If YouTubes audio recognition raises the "we know that drumbeat..." flag and then finds out "ah, but the original version we have indexed was also submitted by the same artist/label" only then there is a slight chance wikiloops content might be allowed to stay around.
One really needs to take that bigger picture into view if one were aiming to support wikiloops by giving its music more visibility the way you wanted. Trust me, I have thought these options thru more than once, and have ended up feeling the effort would outweigh the benefit.
If anyone would be interested to elaborate the details, I'd be open to having a workshop on that. The amount of work that would go into opening such a "wikiloops distributes some of its music to the platforms" (and cashes out a fair split of the tiny revenue to its members, as promised by the wikiloops terms of use) would be immensely high, just to satisfy your feeling of "can't be that my music is so "hidden" on wikiloops".
Joe wanted to take a shortcut on all of that, and I think he's been blamed enough by now... I just wanted to make sure everyone here understands there is a huge huge chunk of ice hidden below the surface of this issue.
I'll go and try to enjoy what's left of my saturday now, and suggest you folks do the same.
and people are sending me messages inquiring on my view on this whole situation.
First of all, I would like to thank the previous posters for maintaining a basic level of friendlyness and constructive thinking. This is not the norm online, and it once more shows the quality of this community, thanks for that.
I also appreciate Joes willingness to share his motives and face our responses, that takes guts, and I respect that.
Let me be honest, as you probably know me by now:
When I learned about the findings on Bandcamp etc and someone dropped the name JoeDolan, I was not sure whom it was, but I instantly thought: "Damn, I hope that's not JoeOnBass". Je and me have been in touch for a couple of years, and I got to know him as a true supporter of wikiloops. I even have a picture of him entering the NAMM music fair wearing a wikiloops hoodie, which is something of a trophy to me, as I've never been to NAMM and feel a little flattered by the thought.
And now this (I was truly not aware of the whole distribution thing).
Now, that being said, it does not feel easy to be called out as the judge, personally, but I am responsible for communicating the wikiloops position in all this, whether I like to or not.
Whilst Joe has already stated some of his motives for ignoring some rules, I guess it's my chore to re-state what the rules are, and why they are what they are.
Keep in mind - some new users will stumble onto this thread and take some bits of information, so, we better make sure to clarify what this is all about here.
We alo should remove any referrences to Joes full name eventually, as I see little benefit to this story becoming the top result on google for his name, see what I mean?
OK, so, the rules say that:
- you may only use wikiloops tracks for private use, commercial redistribution is explicitly excluded by the wikiloops public license for good reason.
- I think it is common perception that commercial use starts the second one makes money, regardless of that being pennies or grands.
- We have established some sort of "grey zone policy" over the course of the past decades, which can be summarized as: We will tolerate our music being shared online, even if there are commercial players in the chain (like for instance YouTube or other social media outlets, all of which are commercial enterprises without doubt), but the submitter does not make any direct financial profit, so, such "re-publications" have been tolerated, if then there was a proper credit and ideally a link to wikiloops in sight.
These are the communities rules, what shall I say, they deserve respect.
Even if you feel like they should be reviewed, limit ones options too much and keep one outside out of the marketplaces, that does not give you any right to just ignore the rules.
I don't really feel this needs a lot of discussion, does it?
I believe all of us have a understanding why people like to share stuff on their "regular" channels, and -assumed that a link to wikiloops is present- appreciate the being showcased.
Looking at Joes actions, I can't possibly ignore that a couple of red lines were crossed here, and no matter how much I believe in Joes good intentions or am willing to discuss the limitations created by the wikiloops rules, I cannot possibly end up without objecting to what happened here.
From my point of view, here are the mistakes that need to be corrected, in order of relevance:
- No sales. The money making without the involved users consent needs to stop immediately. I know the revenue might be neglectible, but that is no excuse, sorry.
Set the price to $0 and the biggest flaw is corrected. If that is not possible, please take down.
- Crediting the users and wikiloops: Some of the listings are missing individual participants, all of them are missing any notion of wikiloops, not to speak of a clickable link to wikiloops (the public license explicitly asks for a reference to itself by link in order to stay valid). See if that can be fixed and fix it, otherwise, remove.
It's the rules Joe, what else am I to do than ask you to respect them?
I feel those two things need to be corrected, and then we might be able to forget about the irritation caused by our fellow member Joe.
This does not call for a ban from the wikiloops community in my books, as I do not feel there is malicious intent at all.
So much for the "wikiloops position" I have been asked to state.
-*-
Let me add some additional thoughts and bits of information, and also reply to some of Joes thoughts, just to make sure there are no future misunderstandings.
@Joe: I feel some of your reasoning is correct, even if it does not justify breaking the rules.
You are neither the first nor the only musician who felt not being able to showcase ones wikiloops music on the listener platforms such as spotify was a flaw to wikiloops.
You are correct people will reject visiting unknown websites and ask for the usual suspects, that's how lazy people are.
I can feel the pain of not being allowed to go there.
I can see the huge amout of work you invested into remastering & presenting this music in a more professional context. FrankieJazz music sounds even more high gloss on amazon, simply because the interface, the price and the lack of links to some unknown collab platform gives one a different impression of value. That's psychology, and we can easily agree on that working out. You did well on the mastering, too, no doubt.
What you have been missing (besides the simple wikiloops rule-break covered earlier), and what strikes me as very unprofessional TBH are the legal implementations attached to re-publishing a collaboration effort thru a vendor like distrokid onto several platforms.
I mean, distrokid will have a license agreement you will have to opt in to, so they can opt in to all the platforms terms & agreements prior to submitting "your" track.
There needs to be a legally valid chain of one player reassuring the others "I have the right to do what I'm doing here, and I hereby grant you the right to do whatever your platform does with the content I am submitting".
As you obviously did not have the consent in the first place, the whole chain of legal agreements is broken right from the start, and all of the involved services have a good right to put the blame on you and play the "we were misinformed" game in court. That really is basic legal stuff, and I'm surprised that did not occur to you.
Arguing "Well, Elvis and Michael Jackson never called me back, so, I feel they gave me consent to publish their work in my name...", c'mon man, that can't be seriously serious, when you want to be part of any professional stuff. (if anyone laughed reading this, good, let's get back to laughing soon please).
Also, what if I acted identical to you and submitted my remix of frankieJazz track via my personal distrokid account to the very same platforms. Ever wondered what will happen if some content Id tracking system notices there are two players submitting the same music via different distrokid accounts? That will raise red flags on the various platforms, and your & my reputation will suffer, as we have just proved neither of us had the exclusive rights on the material.
The only legal entitiy that might possibly be able to submit several renditions of the same wikiloops template without getting into these content ID conflicts might be wikiloops itself, as a single pipeline. If YouTubes audio recognition raises the "we know that drumbeat..." flag and then finds out "ah, but the original version we have indexed was also submitted by the same artist/label" only then there is a slight chance wikiloops content might be allowed to stay around.
One really needs to take that bigger picture into view if one were aiming to support wikiloops by giving its music more visibility the way you wanted. Trust me, I have thought these options thru more than once, and have ended up feeling the effort would outweigh the benefit.
If anyone would be interested to elaborate the details, I'd be open to having a workshop on that. The amount of work that would go into opening such a "wikiloops distributes some of its music to the platforms" (and cashes out a fair split of the tiny revenue to its members, as promised by the wikiloops terms of use) would be immensely high, just to satisfy your feeling of "can't be that my music is so "hidden" on wikiloops".
Joe wanted to take a shortcut on all of that, and I think he's been blamed enough by now... I just wanted to make sure everyone here understands there is a huge huge chunk of ice hidden below the surface of this issue.
I'll go and try to enjoy what's left of my saturday now, and suggest you folks do the same.
+18
SUPPORTER
Posts: 13
Joined: 22 apr 2012
You were perfectly clear, thank you for your effort and patience
+2
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 9 apr 2016
Joe we played together many years ago. I know you are a man of integrity. My 2 cents being a less than magnificent player unlike the great stars here who are offended by your actions is that you are correct. Unfortunately few people visit the loops to listen. Maybe that will change one day and perhaps drawing attention to it as you have done is one way. I don't get the fuss myself... but it's like dealing with band members...lol always one or two in there who are difficult to work with. Maybe they have a legitimate point. Let it roll off your shoulders and just take down anything to do with anyone who complained. In the future just make sure they are okay with it before posting elsewhere. You and anyone here is welcome to use any meager add here on the loops I have done for any purpose....I could care less........wikiloops should just be fun....I might offer this advice to people. If a track is that good then don't post it on wikiloops. I'm sure something that good would make any big time producer salivate and throw bundles of cash at you. Send those awesome tracks to a big time music industry producer.....never post them on wikiloops!!!! Guard that musical genius zealously.....putting a stellar composition on the loops is like leaving a candy basket out on halloween in Harlem NY...
+6
SUPPORTER
Posts: 222
Joined: 18 ott 2014
Rules are rules and must be followed. With that said I agree with Craigs take. Anything I do is not worth anything so feel free to use any of our collaboration's as you please I have no artistic qualities and I am Happy that someone ever hears or appreciates anything I have done. I am sure I have broken the rules a time or two but not out of malice or to just steal someone's work and take credit for it. No I would not do that. I used to share songs on a site called Reverbnation but I deleted my page and now just visit here once and a while to enjoy some HOMEGROWN ... Music that is and maybe a jam once and a while Long live wikiloops and the idea behind it. :W
+6
SUPPORTER
Posts: 30
Joined: 15 gen 2018
Thanks to Richard for his involvement and his return through this forum.
Wait and see B)
Wait and see B)
SUPPORTER
Posts: 257
Joined: 2 giu 2018
My thoughts on this for what they're worth are simplistic like most of the music I create, never great let alone perfect but it serves it's purpose of taking my mind off the more serious stuff that's going on in the world around us, what a mess! It's always a shame and a loss when good musicians leave this site over disputes that could be resolved with a couple of thoughtful PMs between those involved. It feels good to let off steam once in a while but then maybe drink a beer and return to what we all love doing best and make some more music. Hope Joe and everyone involved share a keg of cyber beer then continue making this a safe haven from all the other crazy worldwide crap we see on the web and TV. :W
[img]https://ecdn.teacherspayteachers.com/thumbitem/Music-Rules-Posters-1381562-1500873444/original-1381562-2.jpg[/img]
[img]https://ecdn.teacherspayteachers.com/thumbitem/Music-Rules-Posters-1381562-1500873444/original-1381562-2.jpg[/img]
+9
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