AI on Wikiloops a no-go?
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Posts: 88
Joined: 2 lug 2018
7z wrote:
A "IA" se baseia em catalogar melodias ja existentes e fazer variações nelas até que não soem plagio.
A "IA" não formula uma ideia única através da analise subjetiva de intensidade sensorial.
Ela apenas copia as outras formas de estrutura de milhares de outras melodias.
Existem varias tecnicas de criação de melodia, vamos adentrar em uma delas para um bom argumento..
Vamos usar as cena para criar nossas melodias, cada uma dessas cenas se baseia no nosso mundo, até mesmo aquelas cenas de ficção científica possuem os minerais primordiais do universo.
Em apenas um cenario temos diferente tons de cores diferentes tipos de texturas,
Uma arvore uma pedra arenosa e por ai vai tudo que está la visualmente.
Toda cena tem um realce que atrai seus olhos muita das vezes está no céu, descrevendo muito a intesidade das emoções.
Vamos imaginar um entardecer.
Na tarde possuimos tons de cores unicos, o principal realce é o céu laranjado
Se estivessemos em uma noite, geralmente pensariamos em criar algo profundo e mais grave, e se fosse mais melancolico pensariamos que ia decrescer mais. pelo menos a maior parte da sua estrutura.
Se imaginar uma cena onde o realce é um céu mais branco, podemos deduzir que as notas são mais voltadas aos agudos e algo com uma cadencia mais acelerada.
Isso vai refletir na alegria ou não?
Será que isso é tanta coincidência?
Na tarde não é totalmente branco, existe uma atenuação no branco certo?.
Incrivelmente se fizermos melodias tentando expressar isso, elas vão ser mais atenuadas e variar entre algo alegre e triste gerando a nostalgica.
A "IA" nunca saberia colocar uma cadencia e ritimo de acordo com estimulo que está amazenado de maneira única no seu cérebro.
A "IA" não pensa na escolha de timbres de acordo com o contexto da sua ideia, todo timbre tem uma fundamental e seu conjunto de serie de harmonicos que estão dentro do espectro auditivo humano.
Um engenheiro de mixagem ou um músico amador que usa compressão e saturação para criar ou realçar harmonicos em um timbre
Tanto um efeito digital tanto em um pedal analogico que também usa a mesma linguagem binaria de programação, os dois usam a intuição.
Tanto o músico amador tanto o engenheiro de mixagem tem noção de familiaridade de harmonicos, como se explicaria uma estética única de acordo com o contexto para uma "IA"?
Criar músicas usando um instrumento virtual é totalmemte diferente de inteligencia artificial.
Os instrumentos virtuais são gravados no nosso mundo real.
Se a pressão da atmosfera e os gases agissem um pouco diferente, a propagação da onda sonora também seria distinta.
É só ver os sons gravados em marte recetemente, os harmonicos se propagam de outra maneira totalmente diferente como aqui ma terra.
Então existe um limite fisico dos sons captados aqui no nosso planeta, mesmo que não possamos imaginar eles em palavras.
Quando um instrumento virtual ou fisico é escolhido por nós o principal interrese é o timbre.
Por que ele tem que combinar com o resto, de acordo com a ideia que estamos criando na nossa mente.
A ideia está no seu subconciente junto com todo conhecimento musical desde ouvir muita música ou ouvir a narureza o mundo real.
Temos os microtons das ondas sonoras do mar, de um micro-ondas esquentando sua comida.
Quando dirige sozinho e escuta o atrito da terra e das rodas gerando ruidos especificos, as gotas de chuva por exemplo são quase ondas senoides.
Se juntarmos ruidos que são parecido ao do ambiente natural, junto com senoides criamos os pads, e adivinha que sensação um pad reflete? nostalgia, o nosso cérebro é totalmente sensivel aos sons, eles evocam nossas primeiras memorias e as expereincias de sentidos na terra. enfim acabei me perdendo do assunto..
Existem músicas que só vão fazer sentido emocional apenas no seu ultimo compasso, se pergamos um violão que vai fazer uma variação de pitch bend que acaba causando um realce de harmonicos de uma banda, Conhecido também em um EQ como banda de frequencias
Se contarmos também com força que coloca sobre as notas desse ultimo compasso existe um aumento de amplitude diferente de todo resto da wave, tudo isso gerando um estimulo unico no ouvinte.
Você realmente acha que uma "IA" faria isso?
Um pitch bend apenas para destacar um conjunto de frenquencias de uma faixa do espectro de acordo com um timbre que é unico, de um instrumento que você mesmo escolheu dando assim uma emoção especifica?
Obvio que ela não faria isso.
Existe a questão de controlar cada amplitude de cada nota dentro de um vst, que cria uma cadencia igual de um instrumento real, quando diz que instrumentos virtuais são comparados à "IA" você descarta toda música eletronica, e descarta toda música da terra.
captada por um microfone.
O radio foi importante para toda nossa evolução humana e provavelmente formulou os seus gostos..
O radio recebe um sinal que é trasformado em sinal eletrico através do seu circuito, que é trasferido para um alto falante que faz uma variação de frente para trás assim comprimindo o ar.
Um computador que amazena bytes e trasforma em sinal eletrico e os envia para um alto falante assim fazendo compresão do ar igualmente a um radio. Quando isso deixa de ser música?
A minha opnião sobre a inteligencia artifical é que um músico que faz suas criações a 2 anos podem ser substituidos facilmente por uma inteligencia artificial.
Porém pessoas que se expressam de maneira unica não podem serem catalogadas, estou dizendo modo de pendar (timbragem, ritimo e harmonia.)
Que a tristeza e a alegria tem uma forma melodica isso todo mundo sabe, forma é diferente de formula, uma forma de bolo ou de uma cadeira pode variar mas sempre vai der uma cadeira.
Se você errar um pouco a forma ja vai trasmitir outra emoção.
Melodias que são mais simples vão ser muito bem feitas pela "IA" mas coisas que dependem do contexto melodico e da sua ( timbragem/serie harmonicas unicas) e do estilo unico de harmonia, isso ela nunca vai conseguir fazer.
"IA" NUNCA VAI CONSEGUIR TER UMA INTUIÇÃO HUMANA, o cérebro é feito de quimica e toda quimica é entropia, e toda entropia é imprevisivel.
Apoio separarem "IA" em campo diferente. mas não vejo sentido separarem a música eletronica.
Infelizmente sei que isso demanda dinheiro.
Mas creio de ja exista spammers bots que estão postando músicas automaticas com "IA" através de prompt de comando, acho que ainda deve ser menor esse ocorrido por conta da verificação do capta (você é um humano) mas ainda isso é um perigo real para esse site
Esse site é ouro para deixar se impreguinar por IA.
-Acho que um cara que cria sons que estão na sua cabeça apenas através de analise de uma ideia nebulosa com uso de sintese aditiva, subtrativa, AM, FM usando conceitos fisicos dificeis, pela logica ele seria então mais músico do que um cara que escolhe uma gibson em uma loja com as series harmonicas prontas feitas por um luthier.-
Toda música gravada que você ouve está dentro de um bit deph e bit rate.
Toda wave que está dentro da faixa de 20 a 20k de hertz é possivel ser feita através da equação de fourier..
Espero que de uma visão melhor.
A "IA" se baseia em catalogar melodias ja existentes e fazer variações nelas até que não soem plagio.
A "IA" não formula uma ideia única através da analise subjetiva de intensidade sensorial.
Ela apenas copia as outras formas de estrutura de milhares de outras melodias.
Existem varias tecnicas de criação de melodia, vamos adentrar em uma delas para um bom argumento..
Vamos usar as cena para criar nossas melodias, cada uma dessas cenas se baseia no nosso mundo, até mesmo aquelas cenas de ficção científica possuem os minerais primordiais do universo.
Em apenas um cenario temos diferente tons de cores diferentes tipos de texturas,
Uma arvore uma pedra arenosa e por ai vai tudo que está la visualmente.
Toda cena tem um realce que atrai seus olhos muita das vezes está no céu, descrevendo muito a intesidade das emoções.
Vamos imaginar um entardecer.
Na tarde possuimos tons de cores unicos, o principal realce é o céu laranjado
Se estivessemos em uma noite, geralmente pensariamos em criar algo profundo e mais grave, e se fosse mais melancolico pensariamos que ia decrescer mais. pelo menos a maior parte da sua estrutura.
Se imaginar uma cena onde o realce é um céu mais branco, podemos deduzir que as notas são mais voltadas aos agudos e algo com uma cadencia mais acelerada.
Isso vai refletir na alegria ou não?
Será que isso é tanta coincidência?
Na tarde não é totalmente branco, existe uma atenuação no branco certo?.
Incrivelmente se fizermos melodias tentando expressar isso, elas vão ser mais atenuadas e variar entre algo alegre e triste gerando a nostalgica.
A "IA" nunca saberia colocar uma cadencia e ritimo de acordo com estimulo que está amazenado de maneira única no seu cérebro.
A "IA" não pensa na escolha de timbres de acordo com o contexto da sua ideia, todo timbre tem uma fundamental e seu conjunto de serie de harmonicos que estão dentro do espectro auditivo humano.
Um engenheiro de mixagem ou um músico amador que usa compressão e saturação para criar ou realçar harmonicos em um timbre
Tanto um efeito digital tanto em um pedal analogico que também usa a mesma linguagem binaria de programação, os dois usam a intuição.
Tanto o músico amador tanto o engenheiro de mixagem tem noção de familiaridade de harmonicos, como se explicaria uma estética única de acordo com o contexto para uma "IA"?
Criar músicas usando um instrumento virtual é totalmemte diferente de inteligencia artificial.
Os instrumentos virtuais são gravados no nosso mundo real.
Se a pressão da atmosfera e os gases agissem um pouco diferente, a propagação da onda sonora também seria distinta.
É só ver os sons gravados em marte recetemente, os harmonicos se propagam de outra maneira totalmente diferente como aqui ma terra.
Então existe um limite fisico dos sons captados aqui no nosso planeta, mesmo que não possamos imaginar eles em palavras.
Quando um instrumento virtual ou fisico é escolhido por nós o principal interrese é o timbre.
Por que ele tem que combinar com o resto, de acordo com a ideia que estamos criando na nossa mente.
A ideia está no seu subconciente junto com todo conhecimento musical desde ouvir muita música ou ouvir a narureza o mundo real.
Temos os microtons das ondas sonoras do mar, de um micro-ondas esquentando sua comida.
Quando dirige sozinho e escuta o atrito da terra e das rodas gerando ruidos especificos, as gotas de chuva por exemplo são quase ondas senoides.
Se juntarmos ruidos que são parecido ao do ambiente natural, junto com senoides criamos os pads, e adivinha que sensação um pad reflete? nostalgia, o nosso cérebro é totalmente sensivel aos sons, eles evocam nossas primeiras memorias e as expereincias de sentidos na terra. enfim acabei me perdendo do assunto..
Existem músicas que só vão fazer sentido emocional apenas no seu ultimo compasso, se pergamos um violão que vai fazer uma variação de pitch bend que acaba causando um realce de harmonicos de uma banda, Conhecido também em um EQ como banda de frequencias
Se contarmos também com força que coloca sobre as notas desse ultimo compasso existe um aumento de amplitude diferente de todo resto da wave, tudo isso gerando um estimulo unico no ouvinte.
Você realmente acha que uma "IA" faria isso?
Um pitch bend apenas para destacar um conjunto de frenquencias de uma faixa do espectro de acordo com um timbre que é unico, de um instrumento que você mesmo escolheu dando assim uma emoção especifica?
Obvio que ela não faria isso.
Existe a questão de controlar cada amplitude de cada nota dentro de um vst, que cria uma cadencia igual de um instrumento real, quando diz que instrumentos virtuais são comparados à "IA" você descarta toda música eletronica, e descarta toda música da terra.
captada por um microfone.
O radio foi importante para toda nossa evolução humana e provavelmente formulou os seus gostos..
O radio recebe um sinal que é trasformado em sinal eletrico através do seu circuito, que é trasferido para um alto falante que faz uma variação de frente para trás assim comprimindo o ar.
Um computador que amazena bytes e trasforma em sinal eletrico e os envia para um alto falante assim fazendo compresão do ar igualmente a um radio. Quando isso deixa de ser música?
A minha opnião sobre a inteligencia artifical é que um músico que faz suas criações a 2 anos podem ser substituidos facilmente por uma inteligencia artificial.
Porém pessoas que se expressam de maneira unica não podem serem catalogadas, estou dizendo modo de pendar (timbragem, ritimo e harmonia.)
Que a tristeza e a alegria tem uma forma melodica isso todo mundo sabe, forma é diferente de formula, uma forma de bolo ou de uma cadeira pode variar mas sempre vai der uma cadeira.
Se você errar um pouco a forma ja vai trasmitir outra emoção.
Melodias que são mais simples vão ser muito bem feitas pela "IA" mas coisas que dependem do contexto melodico e da sua ( timbragem/serie harmonicas unicas) e do estilo unico de harmonia, isso ela nunca vai conseguir fazer.
"IA" NUNCA VAI CONSEGUIR TER UMA INTUIÇÃO HUMANA, o cérebro é feito de quimica e toda quimica é entropia, e toda entropia é imprevisivel.
Apoio separarem "IA" em campo diferente. mas não vejo sentido separarem a música eletronica.
Infelizmente sei que isso demanda dinheiro.
Mas creio de ja exista spammers bots que estão postando músicas automaticas com "IA" através de prompt de comando, acho que ainda deve ser menor esse ocorrido por conta da verificação do capta (você é um humano) mas ainda isso é um perigo real para esse site
Esse site é ouro para deixar se impreguinar por IA.
-Acho que um cara que cria sons que estão na sua cabeça apenas através de analise de uma ideia nebulosa com uso de sintese aditiva, subtrativa, AM, FM usando conceitos fisicos dificeis, pela logica ele seria então mais músico do que um cara que escolhe uma gibson em uma loja com as series harmonicas prontas feitas por um luthier.-
Toda música gravada que você ouve está dentro de um bit deph e bit rate.
Toda wave que está dentro da faixa de 20 a 20k de hertz é possivel ser feita através da equação de fourier..
Espero que de uma visão melhor.
Can someone please translate thsito English/ Thank you.
+1
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Posts: 487
Joined: 4 lug 2020
My final thoughts on this AI as it pertains to WL.
Sure AI is going to be everywhere and you can't avoid it. I don't care about that. I care about AI and how it affects WL as a whole.
When I joined WL, I was amazed at the musicians. The talent, the creativity, the technical ability. There are clear separations as well, and that's awesome. Where else can you jam with the talent of some of these people, it's so cool.
There was talk, last year in the forum, about "consumers" and "composers".
https://www.wikiloops.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=3213
I'm sure we all fall into one or midway or even both. Maybe some primarily compose. Maybe some primarily just do adds (consume) to existing compositions. This is all fine and dandy right?
AI, to me, can level that playing field (and then nothing would feel "special"). If I couldn't write a guitar solo, then with the right AI algorithm, I can now write a solo. If I wasn't a composer of music, I can now feed an algorithm, and voila, I'm now a template composer.
There is no longer clear separation, the lines are blurred. Nothing will feel "special" if AI tracks dominate the feed of tracks. I don't like that. And the reason why I joined WL in the first place, would no longer be true....hence, why would I stay when "musicianship" doesn't have the same meaning here?
Sure AI is going to be everywhere and you can't avoid it. I don't care about that. I care about AI and how it affects WL as a whole.
When I joined WL, I was amazed at the musicians. The talent, the creativity, the technical ability. There are clear separations as well, and that's awesome. Where else can you jam with the talent of some of these people, it's so cool.
There was talk, last year in the forum, about "consumers" and "composers".
https://www.wikiloops.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=3213
I'm sure we all fall into one or midway or even both. Maybe some primarily compose. Maybe some primarily just do adds (consume) to existing compositions. This is all fine and dandy right?
AI, to me, can level that playing field (and then nothing would feel "special"). If I couldn't write a guitar solo, then with the right AI algorithm, I can now write a solo. If I wasn't a composer of music, I can now feed an algorithm, and voila, I'm now a template composer.
There is no longer clear separation, the lines are blurred. Nothing will feel "special" if AI tracks dominate the feed of tracks. I don't like that. And the reason why I joined WL in the first place, would no longer be true....hence, why would I stay when "musicianship" doesn't have the same meaning here?
+5
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Posts: 88
Joined: 23 ago 2021
Funny how AI is such a trigger. The knee jerk seems to be to focus on AI rather than what people do with it. If AI helps humankind solve some hideous diseases sooner would we criticize?
Perhaps the identity of musicians is threatened by a mouse click.
I am.
For no realistic reason.
Maybe since musical expression is personal and I fear being nullified in that intimate space.
Big smile…
Perhaps the identity of musicians is threatened by a mouse click.
I am.
For no realistic reason.
Maybe since musical expression is personal and I fear being nullified in that intimate space.
Big smile…
+2
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Posts: 88
Joined: 2 lug 2018
7z wrote:
@Deezee
**Imagine composing a melody that captures the essence of a happy place.** Just like sunlight dappling through leaves creates a joyous atmosphere, subtle nuances of joy can be woven into the music. However, the way we perceive these details – the colors, textures, even the intensity of emotions – is entirely subjective.
**Memories, though vivid in our minds, can be colored by our perspective.** What felt like a powerful experience might seem less significant when viewed through a different lens. This perception, along with the intricate chemistry of our brains and the health of our memory systems, shapes the melodies and timbres we connect with. It's this very personal connection that makes your choice of unique timbres so special – no one else can replicate it.
**Artificial intelligence, however, lacks this intuitive spark.** It meticulously stitches together melodies, aiming to avoid plagiarism. But its understanding of harmony and emotion is based on human feedback, not inherent feeling. AI can't truly innovate or think outside the box. This is why its creations often feel soulless, with only faint echoes of human emotion.
@Deezee
**Imagine composing a melody that captures the essence of a happy place.** Just like sunlight dappling through leaves creates a joyous atmosphere, subtle nuances of joy can be woven into the music. However, the way we perceive these details – the colors, textures, even the intensity of emotions – is entirely subjective.
**Memories, though vivid in our minds, can be colored by our perspective.** What felt like a powerful experience might seem less significant when viewed through a different lens. This perception, along with the intricate chemistry of our brains and the health of our memory systems, shapes the melodies and timbres we connect with. It's this very personal connection that makes your choice of unique timbres so special – no one else can replicate it.
**Artificial intelligence, however, lacks this intuitive spark.** It meticulously stitches together melodies, aiming to avoid plagiarism. But its understanding of harmony and emotion is based on human feedback, not inherent feeling. AI can't truly innovate or think outside the box. This is why its creations often feel soulless, with only faint echoes of human emotion.
Love the analysis . Thank you.
+1
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Link to My AI track.. Also while I'm at it... I have shared quite a number of my wiki collabs on this site.
https://ibandstand.com/songs/2372
If you look down my song list and any that are not happy that I shared your music. Please let me know and I will most certainly take them back down.
Ok wikiloops and artist names have been mentioned on every single one I shared.
Thanks for the listen.
https://ibandstand.com/songs/2372
If you look down my song list and any that are not happy that I shared your music. Please let me know and I will most certainly take them back down.
Ok wikiloops and artist names have been mentioned on every single one I shared.
Thanks for the listen.
+1
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You don't have to worry Dorothy for the few tracks you've done. You're grandfathered in, I'm pretty sure of that. It's about the inevitable "musicians" showing up with their fake music by the boatload.
It would be nice if Dick made a statement though to know where we stand here as contributors to this site (I'm sure he's probably mulling it over).. personally I think the tracks should be organic with real instruments, this is not the place for fake computer generated music ... that's my opinion.
It would be nice if Dick made a statement though to know where we stand here as contributors to this site (I'm sure he's probably mulling it over).. personally I think the tracks should be organic with real instruments, this is not the place for fake computer generated music ... that's my opinion.
+11
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I am not getting involved in this conversation but I do agree with you.... B)
+2
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zedders wrote:
You're jumping to a few conclusions here and also painting a very false picture of creating drum tracks on a computer. At the very least you're picking on essentially copying an entire drum track from elsewhere (drag and drop) then tarring all computer drumming with that broad brush. At the opposite end of the scale, I would be painting every hit onto the grid and sweating trying to make groove. It's ultra time consuming and to be halfway convincing you do need to know how to play the drums in the first place.
I would like you to find time to create one of these drum tracks you are so scathing of and post it up... if it's that easy it won't take you more than a few seconds. :)
pconey wrote:
There's something I don't really appreciate, and thats how some "musicians" on here can drag and drop drum tracks and people say "amazing drumming mate" - and they've probably never picked up a pair of drumsticks in their life, while real drummers spend half a day playing on a track then its often largely ignored, but this is just another example of how this place can sometimes be more about popularity rather than skill, ability and talent, some people on here have already been fooled by members who cant really play anything.
There's something I don't really appreciate, and thats how some "musicians" on here can drag and drop drum tracks and people say "amazing drumming mate" - and they've probably never picked up a pair of drumsticks in their life, while real drummers spend half a day playing on a track then its often largely ignored, but this is just another example of how this place can sometimes be more about popularity rather than skill, ability and talent, some people on here have already been fooled by members who cant really play anything.
You're jumping to a few conclusions here and also painting a very false picture of creating drum tracks on a computer. At the very least you're picking on essentially copying an entire drum track from elsewhere (drag and drop) then tarring all computer drumming with that broad brush. At the opposite end of the scale, I would be painting every hit onto the grid and sweating trying to make groove. It's ultra time consuming and to be halfway convincing you do need to know how to play the drums in the first place.
I would like you to find time to create one of these drum tracks you are so scathing of and post it up... if it's that easy it won't take you more than a few seconds. :)
It appears you don't know me very well, or listened to any of my uploads...
I've been playing drums since 1994, and also been on Wikiloops since 2014 (2017 as an actual uploader), both as an organic drummer, an electronic drummer and often a bit of both to create new ideas, so with all respect to you , I think I've got some idea what i'm on about regarding what it takes to create, record, mix and master drum tracks. Don't be fooled by my 275 uploads - I've spent 30 years doing this, and way more outside of the loops ;)
+4
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Ernie440 wrote:
You don't have to worry Dorothy for the few tracks you've done. You're grandfathered in, I'm pretty sure of that. It's about the inevitable "musicians" showing up with their fake music by the boatload.
It would be nice if Dick made a statement though to know where we stand here as contributors to this site (I'm sure he's probably mulling it over).. personally I think the tracks should be organic with real instruments, this is not the place for fake computer generated music ... that's my opinion.
You don't have to worry Dorothy for the few tracks you've done. You're grandfathered in, I'm pretty sure of that. It's about the inevitable "musicians" showing up with their fake music by the boatload.
It would be nice if Dick made a statement though to know where we stand here as contributors to this site (I'm sure he's probably mulling it over).. personally I think the tracks should be organic with real instruments, this is not the place for fake computer generated music ... that's my opinion.
Thanks for that Ernie,
what I really liked about AI turned all my lovely poems, I wrote specially for my two youngest when they were little about the antics they both got up to. And about how I felt when my little boy Matthew started his first day at Primary school. Ai actually turned them into the sweetest songs.. It's also taught me how to write proper song lyrics.. I'm not Musically trained to spot flaws so to my ears. I love them.
''
You can't beat the thrill of getting an email from wiki saying I've had remix on one of my songs.:o The real deal is far better. I agree..
+3
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pconey wrote:
It appears you don't know me very well, or listened to any of my uploads...
I've been playing drums since 1994, and also been on Wikiloops since 2014 (2017 as an actual uploader), both as an organic drummer, an electronic drummer and often a bit of both to create new ideas, so with all respect to you , I think I've got some idea what i'm on about regarding what it takes to create, record, mix and master drum tracks. Don't be fooled by my 275 uploads - I've spent 30 years doing this, and way more outside of the loops ;)
With respect, you dodged the challenge and misrepresented my post in order to do so. ;)zedders wrote:
You're jumping to a few conclusions here and also painting a very false picture of creating drum tracks on a computer. At the very least you're picking on essentially copying an entire drum track from elsewhere (drag and drop) then tarring all computer drumming with that broad brush. At the opposite end of the scale, I would be painting every hit onto the grid and sweating trying to make groove. It's ultra time consuming and to be halfway convincing you do need to know how to play the drums in the first place.
I would like you to find time to create one of these drum tracks you are so scathing of and post it up... if it's that easy it won't take you more than a few seconds. :)
pconey wrote:
There's something I don't really appreciate, and thats how some "musicians" on here can drag and drop drum tracks and people say "amazing drumming mate" - and they've probably never picked up a pair of drumsticks in their life, while real drummers spend half a day playing on a track then its often largely ignored, but this is just another example of how this place can sometimes be more about popularity rather than skill, ability and talent, some people on here have already been fooled by members who cant really play anything.
There's something I don't really appreciate, and thats how some "musicians" on here can drag and drop drum tracks and people say "amazing drumming mate" - and they've probably never picked up a pair of drumsticks in their life, while real drummers spend half a day playing on a track then its often largely ignored, but this is just another example of how this place can sometimes be more about popularity rather than skill, ability and talent, some people on here have already been fooled by members who cant really play anything.
You're jumping to a few conclusions here and also painting a very false picture of creating drum tracks on a computer. At the very least you're picking on essentially copying an entire drum track from elsewhere (drag and drop) then tarring all computer drumming with that broad brush. At the opposite end of the scale, I would be painting every hit onto the grid and sweating trying to make groove. It's ultra time consuming and to be halfway convincing you do need to know how to play the drums in the first place.
I would like you to find time to create one of these drum tracks you are so scathing of and post it up... if it's that easy it won't take you more than a few seconds. :)
It appears you don't know me very well, or listened to any of my uploads...
I've been playing drums since 1994, and also been on Wikiloops since 2014 (2017 as an actual uploader), both as an organic drummer, an electronic drummer and often a bit of both to create new ideas, so with all respect to you , I think I've got some idea what i'm on about regarding what it takes to create, record, mix and master drum tracks. Don't be fooled by my 275 uploads - I've spent 30 years doing this, and way more outside of the loops ;)
I have total respect and preference for real drumming, lets get that straight.
The challenge was to write drums in a DAW which you dismiss as "cut and paste" to show how easy it is.
While we're sword waving, I've spent 50 years doing this. So what?:)
+1
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7z wrote:
When Andromeda collides with the Milky Way, I'll be back here to testify which is better.
When Andromeda collides with the Milky Way, I'll be back here to testify which is better.
😂👍
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I believe that AI will spread to every conceivable area in the future. In our capitalist system, this is simply a question of minimizing costs. With a little imagination, you can imagine many effects. The whole thing is still in its infancy! It will probably affect one area more than the other.
This raises some fundamental ethical questions. AI would make no sense at all if it could not draw on the knowledge and experience of specialists. However, these specialists earn their money by applying their knowledge. This destroys their livelihood.
In the music industry, it actually affects the entire field of commercial music. Most of them will probably have to close their studios in the next few years. In pop music, only one person is needed to embody and identify the musician. But even that will probably be replaced by avatars in the future by the music industry. So much for my vision of the future, which may not be shared by everyone.
How do you deal with this problem with WikiLoops? I myself find some AI compositions from SUNO, for example, quite well done and have already caught myself with some emotions. The temptation is great to use these things. It's not theft and there's no problem with copyright, it's just that you haven't done it yourself and that's no fun. Of course, this also applies to a lesser extent to all midi instruments. I also like to use a drum plug-in or midi bass for my tracks. But you need a musical understanding to work with them.
Everything made by hand is of course much better if you can do it.
I think WikiLoops should prohibit the use of AI in the future. Of course, nobody can check this, but such a basic rule would promote the community. The other members would then point this out. Everyone has now played around with AI, fascinated and shocked at the same time. But that's enough and we should get back to the creative side.
This raises some fundamental ethical questions. AI would make no sense at all if it could not draw on the knowledge and experience of specialists. However, these specialists earn their money by applying their knowledge. This destroys their livelihood.
In the music industry, it actually affects the entire field of commercial music. Most of them will probably have to close their studios in the next few years. In pop music, only one person is needed to embody and identify the musician. But even that will probably be replaced by avatars in the future by the music industry. So much for my vision of the future, which may not be shared by everyone.
How do you deal with this problem with WikiLoops? I myself find some AI compositions from SUNO, for example, quite well done and have already caught myself with some emotions. The temptation is great to use these things. It's not theft and there's no problem with copyright, it's just that you haven't done it yourself and that's no fun. Of course, this also applies to a lesser extent to all midi instruments. I also like to use a drum plug-in or midi bass for my tracks. But you need a musical understanding to work with them.
Everything made by hand is of course much better if you can do it.
I think WikiLoops should prohibit the use of AI in the future. Of course, nobody can check this, but such a basic rule would promote the community. The other members would then point this out. Everyone has now played around with AI, fascinated and shocked at the same time. But that's enough and we should get back to the creative side.
+6
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Andel wrote:
I think WikiLoops should prohibit the use of AI in the future.
I think WikiLoops should prohibit the use of AI in the future.
I agree.
+3
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I can't resist adding:
Do not eliminate the synthetic voices.
Many years accepting virtual instruments and now that the first human instrument appears: The voice....
would be eliminated. 🥹
That would be a kind of imbalance...injustice 😐
With precision: Many tracks before with synthesis vocals, no one said anything... Now that it has excitement it could be blocked! That would take away feeling from this network of tracks.
Rather I would encourage voice (AI voice tracks only) and this site would have a balance of virtual instruments and it is a tool for poets and singers, who are scarce
Do not eliminate the synthetic voices.
Many years accepting virtual instruments and now that the first human instrument appears: The voice....
would be eliminated. 🥹
That would be a kind of imbalance...injustice 😐
With precision: Many tracks before with synthesis vocals, no one said anything... Now that it has excitement it could be blocked! That would take away feeling from this network of tracks.
Rather I would encourage voice (AI voice tracks only) and this site would have a balance of virtual instruments and it is a tool for poets and singers, who are scarce
+3
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Everything that is said here is interesting... AI in all fields of knowledge and it seems unstoppable, it is not mandatory to use it either! Despite AI, there will be photographers who still use their cameras, poets who write on a pad, sculptors who model clay and musicians who play their instruments.
Just a couple of thoughts
- In a forum of photography, literature, sculpture, the same arguments would be discussed... but AI cannot steal light from a photographer, from a poet the word, or from a sculptor the clay... and from none your human creativity!!
- like all technological advances, opinions, fears, beliefs, emotions, aversions are generated... but without going any further, we are actually here at WL because of the advancement of technology (computer science, internet, mobile telephony, VST, midis, DAWs , interface... etc etc), let AI evolve as we have let these technologies evolve without fear of disappearing
In the musical field, AI will only divide musicians between those who play with their heart on an instrument, and those who make music with a mouse and a screen, and believe me, no matter how much technology advances and becomes sophisticated, we musicians will know who does one thing and does another; and we will select only the music that enters our ears that has soul, without prohibiting anything, there will be ears and audiences for some and for others, but they will not be able to steal our notes, nor our soul, nor our creativity.
Yesterday I read a proverb that may perhaps illustrate some of the reflections on AI and musicians.
"when a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king, the palace becomes a circus..."
Whether WL is a temple or a circus depends on our community and our music, in the click of your mouse you have the power....
Just a couple of thoughts
- In a forum of photography, literature, sculpture, the same arguments would be discussed... but AI cannot steal light from a photographer, from a poet the word, or from a sculptor the clay... and from none your human creativity!!
- like all technological advances, opinions, fears, beliefs, emotions, aversions are generated... but without going any further, we are actually here at WL because of the advancement of technology (computer science, internet, mobile telephony, VST, midis, DAWs , interface... etc etc), let AI evolve as we have let these technologies evolve without fear of disappearing
In the musical field, AI will only divide musicians between those who play with their heart on an instrument, and those who make music with a mouse and a screen, and believe me, no matter how much technology advances and becomes sophisticated, we musicians will know who does one thing and does another; and we will select only the music that enters our ears that has soul, without prohibiting anything, there will be ears and audiences for some and for others, but they will not be able to steal our notes, nor our soul, nor our creativity.
Yesterday I read a proverb that may perhaps illustrate some of the reflections on AI and musicians.
"when a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king, the palace becomes a circus..."
Whether WL is a temple or a circus depends on our community and our music, in the click of your mouse you have the power....
+7
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oh oh, hi friends 🙋♀️
this is difficult, I take esch oppinion for inspiration
there are human nature rights to keep, does AI guarantees that ?
it is the energy behind using it, KI is a machine, machines serve us, they have no feel, but those songs sometimes reach our feel positively, when that happens, I feel flashed and happy
it will ever stay a machine, made out of stardust material 💫
in near future I will add a natural project, which is based on AI inspiration with José, working with AI for first and the a natural piece of music in the end, an experimant, which bases on the serving/help of a machine
we give effects to our instruments, to voices, electronic help
it's a friendship with a not feeling friend and kind to us, a supporter
I guess it's ok, when machines support us, we can accept them that was maybe ?
some people program them, we also do that now, whole world more and more, let see .. you can decide, how much you are a part of that process .. if yes, if not
I have fun with some results, commercial music seldom touches me, the part of others
individual development maybe
when wikiloops decides to refuse complete machine created songs, it is their decision, I have to accept that
just some philosophy thoughts ..
see you, friends :Y
this is difficult, I take esch oppinion for inspiration
there are human nature rights to keep, does AI guarantees that ?
it is the energy behind using it, KI is a machine, machines serve us, they have no feel, but those songs sometimes reach our feel positively, when that happens, I feel flashed and happy
it will ever stay a machine, made out of stardust material 💫
in near future I will add a natural project, which is based on AI inspiration with José, working with AI for first and the a natural piece of music in the end, an experimant, which bases on the serving/help of a machine
we give effects to our instruments, to voices, electronic help
it's a friendship with a not feeling friend and kind to us, a supporter
I guess it's ok, when machines support us, we can accept them that was maybe ?
some people program them, we also do that now, whole world more and more, let see .. you can decide, how much you are a part of that process .. if yes, if not
I have fun with some results, commercial music seldom touches me, the part of others
individual development maybe
when wikiloops decides to refuse complete machine created songs, it is their decision, I have to accept that
just some philosophy thoughts ..
see you, friends :Y
+1
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Joined: 25 nov 2013
GlezBass wrote:
Everything that is said here is interesting... AI in all fields of knowledge and it seems unstoppable, it is not mandatory to use it either! Despite AI, there will be photographers who still use their cameras, poets who write on a pad, sculptors who model clay and musicians who play their instruments.
Just a couple of thoughts
- In a forum of photography, literature, sculpture, the same arguments would be discussed... but AI cannot steal light from a photographer, from a poet the word, or from a sculptor the clay... and from none your human creativity!!
- like all technological advances, opinions, fears, beliefs, emotions, aversions are generated... but without going any further, we are actually here at WL because of the advancement of technology (computer science, internet, mobile telephony, VST, midis, DAWs , interface... etc etc), let AI evolve as we have let these technologies evolve without fear of disappearing
In the musical field, AI will only divide musicians between those who play with their heart on an instrument, and those who make music with a mouse and a screen, and believe me, no matter how much technology advances and becomes sophisticated, we musicians will know who does one thing and does another; and we will select only the music that enters our ears that has soul, without prohibiting anything, there will be ears and audiences for some and for others, but they will not be able to steal our notes, nor our soul, nor our creativity.
Yesterday I read a proverb that may perhaps illustrate some of the reflections on AI and musicians.
"when a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king, the palace becomes a circus..."
Whether WL is a temple or a circus depends on our community and our music, in the click of your mouse you have the power....
Everything that is said here is interesting... AI in all fields of knowledge and it seems unstoppable, it is not mandatory to use it either! Despite AI, there will be photographers who still use their cameras, poets who write on a pad, sculptors who model clay and musicians who play their instruments.
Just a couple of thoughts
- In a forum of photography, literature, sculpture, the same arguments would be discussed... but AI cannot steal light from a photographer, from a poet the word, or from a sculptor the clay... and from none your human creativity!!
- like all technological advances, opinions, fears, beliefs, emotions, aversions are generated... but without going any further, we are actually here at WL because of the advancement of technology (computer science, internet, mobile telephony, VST, midis, DAWs , interface... etc etc), let AI evolve as we have let these technologies evolve without fear of disappearing
In the musical field, AI will only divide musicians between those who play with their heart on an instrument, and those who make music with a mouse and a screen, and believe me, no matter how much technology advances and becomes sophisticated, we musicians will know who does one thing and does another; and we will select only the music that enters our ears that has soul, without prohibiting anything, there will be ears and audiences for some and for others, but they will not be able to steal our notes, nor our soul, nor our creativity.
Yesterday I read a proverb that may perhaps illustrate some of the reflections on AI and musicians.
"when a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king, the palace becomes a circus..."
Whether WL is a temple or a circus depends on our community and our music, in the click of your mouse you have the power....
This was very diplomatic and somewhat non confrontational, yet lacks a clear cut position on AI.
Could we tell the difference between our tracks and AI? Yes, especially since most of us play one instrument at a time and know who plays what. However if we suddenly have hundreds (or more) tracks a day arriving here, are any of us who wish to play real music with other real musicians gong to plod through all of those to find each other?
Did the taggers that were here care if nobody complimented them? Or were they just trying to post as many tracks as possible so that they would have a huge number here? Those people are still out there plus the button pushers that want to think they are musicians because they gave a couple instructions to a computer.
I'd love to be wrong about all this, yet it's only a little while before the few AI tracks we're seeing here daily(mostly by people who are members) turns into a flood from all the people out there who wish they were a musician. Giving a few instructions to a computer, and putting their name to what comes out is the game.
Are we gong to give compliments to a computer program? Probably not, but those tracks are going to jam this place up and make it too difficult for the rest of us to effectively play together. If that's the case I won't be here, and it's likely that others won't as well.
There is only one thing that would feebly work. An "ignore" button for each of us to activate which blocks all tracks and input from selected individuals. I'd use this for all AI posters, but would still need to be continually adding as those people will just keep coming. It's also totally ingenuous since it's accommodating music most of us don't want to hear or be part of and would require continually having to monitor and block new members. What a waste!
Much easier to be somewhere where it's just musicians cooperating in making creative new music together. That for me (and many others I'm sure) has been the joy of this place. Take that joy away, or make it difficult for real musicians, and this place will loose it's reason for being, and likely many of its members.
+5
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To AI or not to AI on Wikiloops, that is the question. Because there is fear that if we don't ban AI from WL, we will be inundated with AI generated tracks, and everyone will leave because that's not what we signed up for.
First of all, that is a big assumption that everyone seems to take for granted. It could be true, but not necessarily so. It depends on the community and how we communicate with other members.
I read all the previous posts and the way deezee was given honest opinions from other members was cordial and understanding. So the situation was resolved with her. Well, couldn't we do that with others who use AI?
But then there is the fear that WL would be swamped with AI tracks if it's not banned.
If AI is allowed, I think WL should maintain strict standards of disclosure and transparency, meaning when you upload there should be a box where you can check if it is AI generated at all. Also, a list in the description section of all tools used including software, instruments, samples, beat tracks, etc. It would be like a photographers display of a photo where he has the camera brand, lens, aperture and exposure setting. Nowadays, most photos are noted if it is digitally created or manipulated.
Encouraging these standards will draw the right creative people and keep the non-musical, non-creative AI users at bay. Hopefully.
And it would be an honor system. I might be naive to think that would work, but it just might, as the members are international. I know it wouldn't work if limited to certain countries. It all depends on what kind of "country" (community) Wikiloops is.
So, to me AI is okay as long as I know it's AI. It's about transparency.
First of all, that is a big assumption that everyone seems to take for granted. It could be true, but not necessarily so. It depends on the community and how we communicate with other members.
I read all the previous posts and the way deezee was given honest opinions from other members was cordial and understanding. So the situation was resolved with her. Well, couldn't we do that with others who use AI?
But then there is the fear that WL would be swamped with AI tracks if it's not banned.
If AI is allowed, I think WL should maintain strict standards of disclosure and transparency, meaning when you upload there should be a box where you can check if it is AI generated at all. Also, a list in the description section of all tools used including software, instruments, samples, beat tracks, etc. It would be like a photographers display of a photo where he has the camera brand, lens, aperture and exposure setting. Nowadays, most photos are noted if it is digitally created or manipulated.
Encouraging these standards will draw the right creative people and keep the non-musical, non-creative AI users at bay. Hopefully.
And it would be an honor system. I might be naive to think that would work, but it just might, as the members are international. I know it wouldn't work if limited to certain countries. It all depends on what kind of "country" (community) Wikiloops is.
So, to me AI is okay as long as I know it's AI. It's about transparency.
+5
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Wade: "This was very diplomatic and somewhat non-confrontational, yet lacks a clear cut position on AI."
Sure!!
My position is only philosophical and perhaps to a certain extent more real, it means that AI is not limited here, I will decide who I am a follower of or not. In fact we do it here like this with the "music of intelligence and natural elaboration"
No matter how much AI there is here, my mouse click will always play your tracks with the 100-year-old C sax Wade!! , but if you jump into an AI-crafted track with your natural sense and the same sax, I'll get in too! ;)
Sure!!
My position is only philosophical and perhaps to a certain extent more real, it means that AI is not limited here, I will decide who I am a follower of or not. In fact we do it here like this with the "music of intelligence and natural elaboration"
No matter how much AI there is here, my mouse click will always play your tracks with the 100-year-old C sax Wade!! , but if you jump into an AI-crafted track with your natural sense and the same sax, I'll get in too! ;)
+3
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