A novices journey to getting a “proper” bass sound
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(Written in the hope that in a couple of years time I`ll revisit this text and think “What a fool I was then”)
When I made the rather impulsive decision to start learning bass guitar some 18 months back, the only thing I had in mind was to understand the instrument, progress through regular practicing….and that was it.
The search for some drum tracks as an alternative to the bleep bleep bleep of my metronome led me to Wikiloops and opened up a whole new world of opportunities in practicing to different styles and progressing to new levels.
So, lot`s of fun to learn to understand “bass” and slowly finding my feet … thanks to a very forgiving and supporting Wikiloops community.
But here`s where my problem really sets in: The difference between the sound I am creating through my playing and the sound that finally makes it into a mix. Were I talking about a piano it would be a relatively simple thing to create a space inside a mix to place the piano. The piano sound as my output would be the sound input into the mix. Done and dusted.
Not so with a bass guitar. The way I see it, I am fighting on at least two fronts:
a) My playing ability (or lack thereof): It is still fairly uneven with regards to dynamics, volume, tempo … all issues where I`m optimistic that regular practice will lead to some improvements.
b) As a consequence of a) applying effects like compressors and limiters does help to polish some of the defects of my limitations. It also helps to better position my bass playing in an existing template.
But that is exactly the problem…deciding what I should be aiming for. The sound that I would like to create as my output or the sound that is required as acceptable into a template that is already filled with guitars, drums, keys etc.. At the moment these two options seem to be mutually exclusive.
If I listen to some of the templates to which I added some bass parts and where the overall result sounded ok (if somewhat mushy) and then listen to the bass parts only … horror doesn`t even begin to come close to describing my emotions.
Imagine the sound of a herd of elephants intent on stomping on a colony of hedgehogs as a close approximation.
Now…many experts proclaim that this is actually the usual case: If you go for playing bass that sounds good on its own (or maybe with only drums added into the mix) it will never be the sound that can be used to add it to an existing template: The bass will either completely disappear in the mix or it will push everything else into the background or … or…or.
Which leads me to the third front:
c) The scope and depth of “treatment” to my bass sound depends very much on the point at which I add my parts to a template. The later that is – the more instruments and effects are added prior to my stuff – the higher the requirements for bass treatment and hence sound change become.
A couple of fellow Loopers have been very helpful with suggestions regarding EQ settings and other stuff that might help me to lessen the gap between the sound I want and the sound that`s needed, but let me tell you…it`s hard work.
I`ve gone so far as to create a spreadsheet (work in progress) for my 2 bass guitars in which I detail the various settings of effects in relation the scenario (bass stand-alone vs. bass in a mix with other instruments). Add to that the additional variation that sometimes I would want more of a “growl” and other times more of a clean sound…well the spreadsheet is forever getting larger and more detailed.
Of course, the first reason for documenting my sound experiments was to create fx chains with fixed settings in my DAW that I could activate depending on what I want to achieve. And all in all it does make things a little less horrible but I am still nowhere near to what I really want to achieve.
So, the journey continues and maybe some of the issues will disappear with a growing ability to play but I am not keeping my fingers crossed. It won`t make playing and Wikiloops any less of a rewarding experience but it is a good thing that I have no ambition of ever becoming anything else than a dedicated, bungling amateur. The dedication is there, the bungling amateur will doubtlessly follow at some point. :|
When I made the rather impulsive decision to start learning bass guitar some 18 months back, the only thing I had in mind was to understand the instrument, progress through regular practicing….and that was it.
The search for some drum tracks as an alternative to the bleep bleep bleep of my metronome led me to Wikiloops and opened up a whole new world of opportunities in practicing to different styles and progressing to new levels.
So, lot`s of fun to learn to understand “bass” and slowly finding my feet … thanks to a very forgiving and supporting Wikiloops community.
But here`s where my problem really sets in: The difference between the sound I am creating through my playing and the sound that finally makes it into a mix. Were I talking about a piano it would be a relatively simple thing to create a space inside a mix to place the piano. The piano sound as my output would be the sound input into the mix. Done and dusted.
Not so with a bass guitar. The way I see it, I am fighting on at least two fronts:
a) My playing ability (or lack thereof): It is still fairly uneven with regards to dynamics, volume, tempo … all issues where I`m optimistic that regular practice will lead to some improvements.
b) As a consequence of a) applying effects like compressors and limiters does help to polish some of the defects of my limitations. It also helps to better position my bass playing in an existing template.
But that is exactly the problem…deciding what I should be aiming for. The sound that I would like to create as my output or the sound that is required as acceptable into a template that is already filled with guitars, drums, keys etc.. At the moment these two options seem to be mutually exclusive.
If I listen to some of the templates to which I added some bass parts and where the overall result sounded ok (if somewhat mushy) and then listen to the bass parts only … horror doesn`t even begin to come close to describing my emotions.
Imagine the sound of a herd of elephants intent on stomping on a colony of hedgehogs as a close approximation.
Now…many experts proclaim that this is actually the usual case: If you go for playing bass that sounds good on its own (or maybe with only drums added into the mix) it will never be the sound that can be used to add it to an existing template: The bass will either completely disappear in the mix or it will push everything else into the background or … or…or.
Which leads me to the third front:
c) The scope and depth of “treatment” to my bass sound depends very much on the point at which I add my parts to a template. The later that is – the more instruments and effects are added prior to my stuff – the higher the requirements for bass treatment and hence sound change become.
A couple of fellow Loopers have been very helpful with suggestions regarding EQ settings and other stuff that might help me to lessen the gap between the sound I want and the sound that`s needed, but let me tell you…it`s hard work.
I`ve gone so far as to create a spreadsheet (work in progress) for my 2 bass guitars in which I detail the various settings of effects in relation the scenario (bass stand-alone vs. bass in a mix with other instruments). Add to that the additional variation that sometimes I would want more of a “growl” and other times more of a clean sound…well the spreadsheet is forever getting larger and more detailed.
Of course, the first reason for documenting my sound experiments was to create fx chains with fixed settings in my DAW that I could activate depending on what I want to achieve. And all in all it does make things a little less horrible but I am still nowhere near to what I really want to achieve.
So, the journey continues and maybe some of the issues will disappear with a growing ability to play but I am not keeping my fingers crossed. It won`t make playing and Wikiloops any less of a rewarding experience but it is a good thing that I have no ambition of ever becoming anything else than a dedicated, bungling amateur. The dedication is there, the bungling amateur will doubtlessly follow at some point. :|
+4
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Posts: 481
Joined: 4 lug 2020
gonna follow this thread. interesting topic Thomas. i only "dabble" in bass, but would like to learn more on mixing the bass sound. i think in another thread, LittleWing mentioned about "scooping", which is something i've done, scooping out the mids on purpose. i actually made somewhat of an adjustment to not do that on my last bass remix, but there's still those mids missing. more tweaks and more learning for me, but great topic...following.
+1
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Great subject! Many books have been written on bass tone and recording. Thomas, your idea of keeping a journal os settings is excellent, IMHO.
There is such a wide range of tonal variations, beginning with the instrument itself, your fingers (or thumb or pick) multiplied by (possibly) an amp, digital interface, outboard effects and your particular DAW with it's own suite of effects. It is far from simple, but the learning opportunities are fantastic. I've been playing bass since I was 12 (I'm 72 now) and I still learn something every time I play.
You mentioned compressors. There are so many varieties of just those as to be overwhelming. Basically what they do is limit the signal amplitude, by several different methods. Too much compression can cause clipping and/or distortion, a loss of your original tone qualities and added sustain. It is rather a double-edged sword. Ideally (for me anyway, a compressor would slightly limit my dynamic range, helping eliminate unwanted and unintentional variations of loudness, while preserving my original tone and sustain. Unfortunately that is nearly impossible, so using one presents a series of compromises to hopefully find an acceptable balance. There is no substitute for experimentation and experience. Best wishes on your journey!
I too will be following this thread, hoping to pick up tips.
Cheers, David
There is such a wide range of tonal variations, beginning with the instrument itself, your fingers (or thumb or pick) multiplied by (possibly) an amp, digital interface, outboard effects and your particular DAW with it's own suite of effects. It is far from simple, but the learning opportunities are fantastic. I've been playing bass since I was 12 (I'm 72 now) and I still learn something every time I play.
You mentioned compressors. There are so many varieties of just those as to be overwhelming. Basically what they do is limit the signal amplitude, by several different methods. Too much compression can cause clipping and/or distortion, a loss of your original tone qualities and added sustain. It is rather a double-edged sword. Ideally (for me anyway, a compressor would slightly limit my dynamic range, helping eliminate unwanted and unintentional variations of loudness, while preserving my original tone and sustain. Unfortunately that is nearly impossible, so using one presents a series of compromises to hopefully find an acceptable balance. There is no substitute for experimentation and experience. Best wishes on your journey!
I too will be following this thread, hoping to pick up tips.
Cheers, David
+1
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Posts: 667
Joined: 19 set 2018
I started on Wikiloops just playing bass for many years. Ive had probably hundreds of really bad bass mixes.
I still dont have decent methods to record bass like I would like to hear it.
That hasnt stopped me from learning though.
I will say this as its often overlooked.
One of the most important things you can do to get a bass sound great in a mix is ....
Are you ready?........
GET IT SETUP AND IN SPEC BY A COMPLETE PROFESSIONAL.
This includes ...GETTING THE BASS SADDLES PERFECTLY FLUSH WITHIN A FEW THOUSANDTHS OF AN INCH OR MILLIMETER WITH THE SADDLE BASS PLATE.
If you thump an E string and listen , just turning a saddle screw a tiny eensy weensy fraction of a hair , changes how it reacts to your finger.Sustain changes, how it vibrates.We are talking a thousandth of a millimeter tweak.
This is a bass recording killer. The saddles should always be perfectly parallel to the base plate while the height of each saddle follows the radius of the fretboard. This is completely wrong:
[img]https://i.stack.imgur.com/Qgris.jpg[/img]
This is better. The straighter each saddle is to the base plate, the improvement in sound can be heard in headphones. Even a fraction of a millimeter difference between the left and right set screws makes a huge difference.You will never be perfect but the attention to detail pays off bigtime.
Your pickups will pickup alot of transient tones. because the string is vibrating perfectly as would a Stradivarius violin. The attention to detail in the setup is what makes Stradivarius a Stradivarius. The makers are meticulous with measurements.
[img]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.NqBGlwYMJzBcNaepB5QAyAHaHa?pid=ImgDet&rs=1[/img]
Also check neck relief and make certain thats within +/- .002
And also ensure pickup height about 2mm from magnet with string held down at last fret. Measure top of magnet to bottom of string.
The more perfect the bass setup is , makes a huge difference in playability and more importantly will effect the clarity and transient overtones and harmonics a fretted note makes thru the pickup.
It all adds up.
Thats so overlooked and I just had two basses...a Fender P and a J gone thru and the difference before and after is so different.
You should LOVE your bass. It should never be just "okay".
My basses bounce, slap and sound round in the case of the P and "slappy " in the case of the J. Im not a slapper but its setup so its effortless. I dont have sore thumbs and plucking is effortless too. They feel great for me and my touch has actually lightened. I no longer play "hard". Now that I play lighter , it really makes a difference especially on the d and g string and my jazz bass especially comes thru in mixes better than before. My pickups are tweaked so that my basses are never “boomy “ on the neck pickup with tone turned down. The pickup magnets are set for optimal interaction with the string. Again… a small detail that pays huge rewards when recording.
I actually use my tone control and can turn it down because my low end is always definable and clear. My tone control for the first time is actually useable on both basses.
The magnets and radius of the strings is so spot on , all strings are even and they sound fantastic with no amplification. I can play them acoustically without plugging in.
Turning a saddle screw just a tiny hair changes the entire sound and how the string behaves. Ive even Loc-tited the screws down so they dont move easily.
Do yourself a huge favior and have a pro luthier set it up or else learn online and use the proper tools to really have everything adjusted properly.
As for compressors, many bassists are "compressorheads" and I am one. I have three basses and they each have their own dedicated compressor just for that bass as every compressor adds different color.
There are different types. A Multiband will compress your E and A string different from the D and G . Crossover on the bass is old school for recording . Chris Squire and Geddy Lee used to crossover the frequencies of the bass in the mix.
Now we have optical compressors which actually you hear on modern recordings on the radio. The bass is transparent and almost see thru but still there.Hard to describe.But the bass comes thru no problem. Alot of bassists swear by the Cali 76.
The best pedal I ever bought for bass was an FEA Labs DE-CL Optical compressor and man this thing sounds great. Its a little more then just smashing down the level.FEA LABS are very sought after but hard to get as they no longer make them.
[img]https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/img_0621-jpg.3210053/[/img]
Compressors do add a tone and color to the bass so choose carefully.
If shopping for a compressor the EBS Multicomp would be top choice for a multiband.
I think Dark Glass's Hyper Luminal or else the Cali76 for an opto are currently top choice. This would solve the dynamics issue on older Smash it all down basic compressors. The attack of the compressor is much lighter so Dynamics are enhanced rather then squeezed tight.
Hope that helps. Im still searching but much closer now with DI boxes into the interface for the magic bass tone box.
Remco here uses a EBS multiband to keep everything smooth. Dynamics arent an issue for him. Again ..a multiband compresses the E and A different than the D and G. A lot of the intricate nuanced stuff wouldn’t be possible without the compressor to squeeze it forward . Especially when he’s lobster clawing that lower E.The compressor brings out a lot of the subtle sounds if you pay close attention.
Remcos tone is :
1. Remco. Remco is Remco.
2. The maple fingerboard. He plays all hardwood necks. His fretlesses are all epoxy coated.
3. The Ebs Multicomp. It’s squeezing out that “chinka chinka chinka” sound you wouldn’t get without one.
[youtube]n7hREMZgCdM[/youtube]
Optical compressors not only work on the bass volume but also squeeze out the transient frequencies which come out in a mix. The bass is present yet hard to pinpoint in the mix where it sits. This is an ad for Noble DI boxes but its such a classic Optical bass sound ...best I can describe is the bass is transparent.They dont want you to see it but for a breif few seconds you can see hes plugged into a Darkglass Hyper Luminal Optical Compressor at the 2:15 mark.They zoom away as its an ad for Noble. Because of the transparency , other instruments like the kick drum come thru better and dont fight with the bass at 80hz.
[youtube]yhCp3xLoZXQ[/youtube]
I still dont have decent methods to record bass like I would like to hear it.
That hasnt stopped me from learning though.
I will say this as its often overlooked.
One of the most important things you can do to get a bass sound great in a mix is ....
Are you ready?........
GET IT SETUP AND IN SPEC BY A COMPLETE PROFESSIONAL.
This includes ...GETTING THE BASS SADDLES PERFECTLY FLUSH WITHIN A FEW THOUSANDTHS OF AN INCH OR MILLIMETER WITH THE SADDLE BASS PLATE.
If you thump an E string and listen , just turning a saddle screw a tiny eensy weensy fraction of a hair , changes how it reacts to your finger.Sustain changes, how it vibrates.We are talking a thousandth of a millimeter tweak.
This is a bass recording killer. The saddles should always be perfectly parallel to the base plate while the height of each saddle follows the radius of the fretboard. This is completely wrong:
[img]https://i.stack.imgur.com/Qgris.jpg[/img]
This is better. The straighter each saddle is to the base plate, the improvement in sound can be heard in headphones. Even a fraction of a millimeter difference between the left and right set screws makes a huge difference.You will never be perfect but the attention to detail pays off bigtime.
Your pickups will pickup alot of transient tones. because the string is vibrating perfectly as would a Stradivarius violin. The attention to detail in the setup is what makes Stradivarius a Stradivarius. The makers are meticulous with measurements.
[img]https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.NqBGlwYMJzBcNaepB5QAyAHaHa?pid=ImgDet&rs=1[/img]
Also check neck relief and make certain thats within +/- .002
And also ensure pickup height about 2mm from magnet with string held down at last fret. Measure top of magnet to bottom of string.
The more perfect the bass setup is , makes a huge difference in playability and more importantly will effect the clarity and transient overtones and harmonics a fretted note makes thru the pickup.
It all adds up.
Thats so overlooked and I just had two basses...a Fender P and a J gone thru and the difference before and after is so different.
You should LOVE your bass. It should never be just "okay".
My basses bounce, slap and sound round in the case of the P and "slappy " in the case of the J. Im not a slapper but its setup so its effortless. I dont have sore thumbs and plucking is effortless too. They feel great for me and my touch has actually lightened. I no longer play "hard". Now that I play lighter , it really makes a difference especially on the d and g string and my jazz bass especially comes thru in mixes better than before. My pickups are tweaked so that my basses are never “boomy “ on the neck pickup with tone turned down. The pickup magnets are set for optimal interaction with the string. Again… a small detail that pays huge rewards when recording.
I actually use my tone control and can turn it down because my low end is always definable and clear. My tone control for the first time is actually useable on both basses.
The magnets and radius of the strings is so spot on , all strings are even and they sound fantastic with no amplification. I can play them acoustically without plugging in.
Turning a saddle screw just a tiny hair changes the entire sound and how the string behaves. Ive even Loc-tited the screws down so they dont move easily.
Do yourself a huge favior and have a pro luthier set it up or else learn online and use the proper tools to really have everything adjusted properly.
As for compressors, many bassists are "compressorheads" and I am one. I have three basses and they each have their own dedicated compressor just for that bass as every compressor adds different color.
There are different types. A Multiband will compress your E and A string different from the D and G . Crossover on the bass is old school for recording . Chris Squire and Geddy Lee used to crossover the frequencies of the bass in the mix.
Now we have optical compressors which actually you hear on modern recordings on the radio. The bass is transparent and almost see thru but still there.Hard to describe.But the bass comes thru no problem. Alot of bassists swear by the Cali 76.
The best pedal I ever bought for bass was an FEA Labs DE-CL Optical compressor and man this thing sounds great. Its a little more then just smashing down the level.FEA LABS are very sought after but hard to get as they no longer make them.
[img]https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/img_0621-jpg.3210053/[/img]
Compressors do add a tone and color to the bass so choose carefully.
If shopping for a compressor the EBS Multicomp would be top choice for a multiband.
I think Dark Glass's Hyper Luminal or else the Cali76 for an opto are currently top choice. This would solve the dynamics issue on older Smash it all down basic compressors. The attack of the compressor is much lighter so Dynamics are enhanced rather then squeezed tight.
Hope that helps. Im still searching but much closer now with DI boxes into the interface for the magic bass tone box.
Remco here uses a EBS multiband to keep everything smooth. Dynamics arent an issue for him. Again ..a multiband compresses the E and A different than the D and G. A lot of the intricate nuanced stuff wouldn’t be possible without the compressor to squeeze it forward . Especially when he’s lobster clawing that lower E.The compressor brings out a lot of the subtle sounds if you pay close attention.
Remcos tone is :
1. Remco. Remco is Remco.
2. The maple fingerboard. He plays all hardwood necks. His fretlesses are all epoxy coated.
3. The Ebs Multicomp. It’s squeezing out that “chinka chinka chinka” sound you wouldn’t get without one.
[youtube]n7hREMZgCdM[/youtube]
Optical compressors not only work on the bass volume but also squeeze out the transient frequencies which come out in a mix. The bass is present yet hard to pinpoint in the mix where it sits. This is an ad for Noble DI boxes but its such a classic Optical bass sound ...best I can describe is the bass is transparent.They dont want you to see it but for a breif few seconds you can see hes plugged into a Darkglass Hyper Luminal Optical Compressor at the 2:15 mark.They zoom away as its an ad for Noble. Because of the transparency , other instruments like the kick drum come thru better and dont fight with the bass at 80hz.
[youtube]yhCp3xLoZXQ[/youtube]
+4
SUPPORTER
Posts: 310
Joined: 19 mar 2022
A quick progress update.
After +20 hours of experiments to find a usable baseline sound, I feel I'm getting closer to what I want.
I think I started out the wrong way, working backwards from the DAW towards the instrument. Everytime I thought I had it nailed, a single minute change to the settings made the sound building collapse again.
The culprit (besides myself): the audio interface. A quick change from my Roland Rubix to the Presonus Audiobox yielded astonishing results:
If I plug the bass directly into the interface, the Rubix is neutral enough to let me create my sound via EQ etc in the DAW.
But...as soon as I put effects between the bass and the interface, no amount of correction in the DAW will get even close to the original sound.
With the Presonus interface it's the other way around.
So I've now whittled things down to 4 different templates in the DAW, depending on external or in the box effects AND the bass I'm using.
I think/hope that each of these templates will give me my baseline and then let me tweak it according to the track-specific sound I want to have.
Bass: Science with a sound
After +20 hours of experiments to find a usable baseline sound, I feel I'm getting closer to what I want.
I think I started out the wrong way, working backwards from the DAW towards the instrument. Everytime I thought I had it nailed, a single minute change to the settings made the sound building collapse again.
The culprit (besides myself): the audio interface. A quick change from my Roland Rubix to the Presonus Audiobox yielded astonishing results:
If I plug the bass directly into the interface, the Rubix is neutral enough to let me create my sound via EQ etc in the DAW.
But...as soon as I put effects between the bass and the interface, no amount of correction in the DAW will get even close to the original sound.
With the Presonus interface it's the other way around.
So I've now whittled things down to 4 different templates in the DAW, depending on external or in the box effects AND the bass I'm using.
I think/hope that each of these templates will give me my baseline and then let me tweak it according to the track-specific sound I want to have.
Bass: Science with a sound
+2
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