Can charisma beat musical ability ?
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Is it important to have a charismatic front man/woman ? They might not be the most talented musically - they may be ugly, nasty, funny, quirky or sexy but they usually have qualities which contribute to the band's success.
A charismatic person has a magnetic attraction, whether they are likable of not something about them exudes Star qualities!
I had in mind someone like Mick Jagger or Bob Geldof but they are from a different era now :D
A charismatic person has a magnetic attraction, whether they are likable of not something about them exudes Star qualities!
I had in mind someone like Mick Jagger or Bob Geldof but they are from a different era now :D
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What it takes to be a “star” is always the same .
Some people burn and fade quicker than others .
A small few become social icons. And survive multiple decades.
Mick Jagger really isn’t a great singer yet he is one of the most listened to singers ever.
Having seen four versions of this movie , this particular scene pretty much nails it. Her attitude and demeanor is what propels her .
He on the other hand is jaded and focused on all the wrong things . She briefly brings him back up.
He’s on his way down and temporarily goes back up after finding her .
As she goes upward , he descends back down.
[youtube]eWupm_cePX8?si=YLvSN7kqQ718pjHb[/youtube]
Look at what happened with Susan Boyle.
She was propelled to superstardom for three gold albums but lost her drive and became distracted.
The night this aired , she was electric. She shot like a rocket to the top.
Now shes yesterdays news.
[youtube]yE1Lxw5ZyXk?si=peWSdCxc79zxyDnj[/youtube]
I am fortunate to actually know a "star".
His name is Ronnie Platt. He is currently the lead singer for the rock band Kansas.
I was in a few bands with him and EVERYONE knew something would happen for him.
He drew in thousands for us.
He was a Mick Jagger in his own right but he wasnt in it for anything then his love of giving a great show to the audience. HE LOVED THE AUDIENCE.
Everyone knew he would be famous in some regard. Kansas heard him and replaced the original singer with him. But Charisma , Energy, Looks.....He always had it .
We would have a sea of women in front of the stage.
This is he and i late 90s playing a outdoor fest doing a Journey song. A few thousand people at an outdoor fest. You can hear him connect to the audience.
https://soundcloud.com/user-936131934/anyway?si=07775611c5c642e5ba5b1ef926203c21&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
The reason the Stones are still rolling is their love and passion tp be infront and performing.
The drugs, mansions, groupies were always secondary.They LOVE their audience and the music number 1
Some people burn and fade quicker than others .
A small few become social icons. And survive multiple decades.
Mick Jagger really isn’t a great singer yet he is one of the most listened to singers ever.
Having seen four versions of this movie , this particular scene pretty much nails it. Her attitude and demeanor is what propels her .
He on the other hand is jaded and focused on all the wrong things . She briefly brings him back up.
He’s on his way down and temporarily goes back up after finding her .
As she goes upward , he descends back down.
[youtube]eWupm_cePX8?si=YLvSN7kqQ718pjHb[/youtube]
Look at what happened with Susan Boyle.
She was propelled to superstardom for three gold albums but lost her drive and became distracted.
The night this aired , she was electric. She shot like a rocket to the top.
Now shes yesterdays news.
[youtube]yE1Lxw5ZyXk?si=peWSdCxc79zxyDnj[/youtube]
I am fortunate to actually know a "star".
His name is Ronnie Platt. He is currently the lead singer for the rock band Kansas.
I was in a few bands with him and EVERYONE knew something would happen for him.
He drew in thousands for us.
He was a Mick Jagger in his own right but he wasnt in it for anything then his love of giving a great show to the audience. HE LOVED THE AUDIENCE.
Everyone knew he would be famous in some regard. Kansas heard him and replaced the original singer with him. But Charisma , Energy, Looks.....He always had it .
We would have a sea of women in front of the stage.
This is he and i late 90s playing a outdoor fest doing a Journey song. A few thousand people at an outdoor fest. You can hear him connect to the audience.
https://soundcloud.com/user-936131934/anyway?si=07775611c5c642e5ba5b1ef926203c21&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing
The reason the Stones are still rolling is their love and passion tp be infront and performing.
The drugs, mansions, groupies were always secondary.They LOVE their audience and the music number 1
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Sorry I can't give a more topical examples but I'm also thinking of people like Ozzy Osbourne, average singer but lots of theatrics - The raspy voiced Alice Cooper - Bob Dylan, a 'lived in' voice - and more recently, the autotuned Kanye West and Britney Spears. The most charismatic has to be Freddy Mercury but he was brilliantly talented at everything imho !
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Based on what I have experienced in the last 4 months I would have to answer YES to your question. I have been trying to work with two guitar player/vocalists since May, and it is like being in a slow motion train wreck. Their is an obvious void where something should be. I've been in many bands over the years, but there has always been someone on stage or in the room that is IN CHARGE. It takes a full blown narcissistic personality to want to be the life of the party at all times. Not a real "leader", but a band leader...
At my last band "rehearsal" I asked that, before we do any thing else, I want to just jam on a basic 12 bar blues in the key of A. What I got was 10 minutes of discussion about what song they could do that was a 12 bar blues, and who would sing it. And we ended up in the key of E. I don't think this is ever going to get past the "practice" on Sunday afternoons stage, so I look at it as just a jam on a Sunday afternoon with a few like minded friends.
I have been playing bass since 1974, and never in all of those years has any band/project come together as a cohesive entity without a clear leader. I was blessed to know someone that would answer all of the "qualities" you listed above with a yes, but he was also a very talented musician.
At my last band "rehearsal" I asked that, before we do any thing else, I want to just jam on a basic 12 bar blues in the key of A. What I got was 10 minutes of discussion about what song they could do that was a 12 bar blues, and who would sing it. And we ended up in the key of E. I don't think this is ever going to get past the "practice" on Sunday afternoons stage, so I look at it as just a jam on a Sunday afternoon with a few like minded friends.
I have been playing bass since 1974, and never in all of those years has any band/project come together as a cohesive entity without a clear leader. I was blessed to know someone that would answer all of the "qualities" you listed above with a yes, but he was also a very talented musician.
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BooDoggie wrote:
At my last band "rehearsal" I asked that, before we do any thing else, I want to just jam on a basic 12 bar blues in the key of A. What I got was 10 minutes of discussion about what song they could do that was a 12 bar blues, and who would sing it. And we ended up in the key of E. I don't think this is ever going to get past the "practice" on Sunday afternoons stage, so I look at it as just a jam on a Sunday afternoon with a few like minded friends.
At my last band "rehearsal" I asked that, before we do any thing else, I want to just jam on a basic 12 bar blues in the key of A. What I got was 10 minutes of discussion about what song they could do that was a 12 bar blues, and who would sing it. And we ended up in the key of E. I don't think this is ever going to get past the "practice" on Sunday afternoons stage, so I look at it as just a jam on a Sunday afternoon with a few like minded friends.
I want to pick up on your point above which demonstrates a leaderless model of collaboration. You're right, it's hard to get things done if you make the production process democratic, debate will always end up with some people wanting to dominate and others losing interest as they feel their input is ignored.
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Agreed... I've worked with some really talented people over the years, and I've spent quite a bit of time in a studio as well. This "band" I'm working with right now has more of a "bunch of guys in a studio" vibe than a working band. The drummer and I spend most of a 4 hour session listening to discussions about what song to do next, or what key this or that song is in or what key they want to play it in. We might on a good day make it all the way through 5 maybe 6 songs.
Sadly I was approached as a "bass player needed" for a project that has been in the works for almost a year. Now, I will point out that all of us are past the age of 60. Two of us are retired. I personally try to play either guitar, bass, or keyboards for an hour or so everyday. Our drummer Dennis is the son of Ray Mills who was the lead guitar player for the Uniques with Joe Stampley back in the late 60s. Dennis is retired and spends most of his spare time fishing. Both of us grew up in a musical family. The other two which are the guitar/vocalists are still working full time jobs and spending most of their spare time with honey-dos... As such they show up at the next rehearsal and spend more time noodling around on a lead bit that they should know by heart by now, and YES it is very frustrating.
I have been asking since May for a comprehensive list of songs that they want to play. I did get a short list of about 36 songs. I spent the next week going over those songs every day so that I would be ready to play them at the next rehearsal only to be met with a completely different list of songs that we end up trying to get through. It's as though they have the attention span of children in a room full of shinny things.
Both Dennis and I have said that maybe we should stop trying to learn to play parts of songs that are obviously too difficult to play without some form of disciplined practice schedule for the guitar/vocalist and just try to write our own material. I even went so far as to offer them a challenge to bring a list of 10 songs that they can play without having to refer to any kind of chord chart or lyric sheets. That never happened. They even wanted to appoint me as their leader, but that lasted about 15 minutes.
So yeah, leaderless collaboration works just fine here on the Loops, but in a live band not so much...
Sadly I was approached as a "bass player needed" for a project that has been in the works for almost a year. Now, I will point out that all of us are past the age of 60. Two of us are retired. I personally try to play either guitar, bass, or keyboards for an hour or so everyday. Our drummer Dennis is the son of Ray Mills who was the lead guitar player for the Uniques with Joe Stampley back in the late 60s. Dennis is retired and spends most of his spare time fishing. Both of us grew up in a musical family. The other two which are the guitar/vocalists are still working full time jobs and spending most of their spare time with honey-dos... As such they show up at the next rehearsal and spend more time noodling around on a lead bit that they should know by heart by now, and YES it is very frustrating.
I have been asking since May for a comprehensive list of songs that they want to play. I did get a short list of about 36 songs. I spent the next week going over those songs every day so that I would be ready to play them at the next rehearsal only to be met with a completely different list of songs that we end up trying to get through. It's as though they have the attention span of children in a room full of shinny things.
Both Dennis and I have said that maybe we should stop trying to learn to play parts of songs that are obviously too difficult to play without some form of disciplined practice schedule for the guitar/vocalist and just try to write our own material. I even went so far as to offer them a challenge to bring a list of 10 songs that they can play without having to refer to any kind of chord chart or lyric sheets. That never happened. They even wanted to appoint me as their leader, but that lasted about 15 minutes.
So yeah, leaderless collaboration works just fine here on the Loops, but in a live band not so much...
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BooDoggie wrote:
.... I did get a short list of about 36 songs. I spent the next week going over those songs every day so that I would be ready to play them at the next rehearsal only to be met with a completely different list of songs that we end up trying to get through. It's as though they have the attention span of children in a room full of shinny things.
.... I did get a short list of about 36 songs. I spent the next week going over those songs every day so that I would be ready to play them at the next rehearsal only to be met with a completely different list of songs that we end up trying to get through. It's as though they have the attention span of children in a room full of shinny things.
36 songs doesn't sound like a "short list" some musicians don't exceed that in a lifetime :D I guess it gets harder as we get older to keep up the enthusiasm for something we've done all our lives! I find decision making becomes more difficult too. "Fishing" sounds good however :)
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The best time I ever had playing in a band occurred when I got together with a great guitar player/singer/front man and a really good drummer for about 2 hours on a Saturday afternoon. We went through a couple of dozen tunes that we were all familiar with and then booked a gig for the next weekend. We never had another "practice" session. We played together for over 3 years. That was over 40 years ago now, but I can confidently say that I could play most of those songs tomorrow if I had to without the need for a practice session.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that chemistry between band members is, to me, more important than the material being played. Once you learn your instrument you learn the patterns and the limits of your talent and your equipment. It is at that point that you become a musician and not just some guy that plays music.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that chemistry between band members is, to me, more important than the material being played. Once you learn your instrument you learn the patterns and the limits of your talent and your equipment. It is at that point that you become a musician and not just some guy that plays music.
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BooDoggie, you bring up an interesting thought for me when you mention chemistry. Chemistry in a team, be it music, business or sport is a winning feature. I started the thread suggesting that 'charisma' may trump talent for a front-man, maybe chemistry is the leveler that bonds a group of people to perform well together!
I just wonder if an audience can detect chemistry at work and if so perhaps charisma can be a collaborative quality!
I just wonder if an audience can detect chemistry at work and if so perhaps charisma can be a collaborative quality!
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I'm sure you have seen it first hand if you've ever watched a good band play live. It's sort of like there's an energy that takes over the room. At some venue like a local festival you will often find a group that, in their minds at least, feel they are pretty good, but you can tell that the chemistry is just not there. And as such, they may be technically very good musicians, but you find that their performance is lacking that something that keeps your interest.
It's that narcissistic personality front man and the chemistry between the players that got us through a battle of the bands contest with a $1000 and the honor of opening for Charlie Daniels as first prize back in 1992. Out of about 30 entries we were chosen to be in the 4 band showdown at a local bar. Right in the middle of our set the power suddenly went out. PA, lights and all... Carl, our front man, kept the crowd entertained as best he could until the power came back on a few minutes later. Just to make light of the situation we started playing the same song we were doing when the power went out at the same point we were and completed the song before going on to the next one. The judge was so impressed that I can safely say the contest was over at that point.
The other bands were good local talent people and most were friends or at least acquaintances of ours, but I think if Carl hadn't acted at the moment the way that he did we may well have not won that night.
It's that narcissistic personality front man and the chemistry between the players that got us through a battle of the bands contest with a $1000 and the honor of opening for Charlie Daniels as first prize back in 1992. Out of about 30 entries we were chosen to be in the 4 band showdown at a local bar. Right in the middle of our set the power suddenly went out. PA, lights and all... Carl, our front man, kept the crowd entertained as best he could until the power came back on a few minutes later. Just to make light of the situation we started playing the same song we were doing when the power went out at the same point we were and completed the song before going on to the next one. The judge was so impressed that I can safely say the contest was over at that point.
The other bands were good local talent people and most were friends or at least acquaintances of ours, but I think if Carl hadn't acted at the moment the way that he did we may well have not won that night.
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BooDoggie wrote:
I'm sure you have seen it first hand if you've ever watched a good band play live. It's sort of like there's an energy that takes over the room. At some venue like a local festival you will often find a group that, in their minds at least, feel they are pretty good, but you can tell that the chemistry is just not there. And as such, they may be technically very good musicians, but you find that their performance is lacking that something that keeps your interest.
I'm sure you have seen it first hand if you've ever watched a good band play live. It's sort of like there's an energy that takes over the room. At some venue like a local festival you will often find a group that, in their minds at least, feel they are pretty good, but you can tell that the chemistry is just not there. And as such, they may be technically very good musicians, but you find that their performance is lacking that something that keeps your interest.
You made me consider bands/groups that have family members performing together. You would think that there is chemistry but quite often there will be one member who appears to be more charismatic than the others.
I'm old so I need to go back to bands like the Kinks, BeeGees, Osmonds, Jacksons, Beachboys and Oasis, Not only did those bands have members that became more memorable, there was often great friction.
I struggle to name female family bands with charismatic front women or newsworthy bust-ups but there must be some ?
I'll add a question. Do female groups have more chemistry than males? Certainly there is a 'Sisterhood' that suggests they bond like a family better than family in some cases.
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i don't really know the answer to "if charisma can beat musical ability", but it does make me think of this :)
[youtube]bb7Edg6KvgI[/youtube]
[youtube]bb7Edg6KvgI[/youtube]
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rootshell wrote:
i don't really know the answer to "if charisma can beat musical ability", but it does make me think of this :)
i don't really know the answer to "if charisma can beat musical ability", but it does make me think of this :)
Hahaha, great statement Nick :D It makes me think of this:
[youtube]54sFmRKzEHU[/youtube]
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[youtube]Lb54wxS5ACk?si=_jmYQPkViMVHBo-m[/youtube]
Axl Rose and ACDC ....what a horrible combination.
Axl Rose and ACDC ....what a horrible combination.
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A little something to add...
Sometimes there are people with both talent and charisma that still don't quite fit in...
[youtube]Zc2dGrBQIk4[/youtube]
Sometimes there are people with both talent and charisma that still don't quite fit in...
[youtube]Zc2dGrBQIk4[/youtube]
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BooDoggie wrote:
A little something to add...
Sometimes there are people with both talent and charisma that still don't quite fit in...
A little something to add...
Sometimes there are people with both talent and charisma that still don't quite fit in...
Right you are! And this guy does it even push harder:
[youtube]K-Op1Mng4oY[/youtube]
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